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I thought we ended this thread. But I will respond to your ignorance.
From Wikipedia
Nazism was the ideology held by the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, commonly called the NSDAP or Nazi Party). The word Nazism is most often used in connection with the government of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945, also known as the "Third Reich". In terms of ideology, Nazism combines collectivism, racialism, nationalism, anti-Semitism and anti-communism, and draws from a variety of other sources.
Calling someone a "Nazi" or even suggesting that one has something in common with Nazism is considered an insult. People of all political persuasions often attempt to draw parallels between their opponents and the Nazis in order to put their opponents in a negative light. This is a fallacy called reductio ad Hitlerum.
And he did suggest that I was a Nazi.
--end thread--
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2006-07-27
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> This is my 3 day on reddit
Great! It's not to late for you to leave!
Seriously, for someone who was born in Europe (and has lived in the US) Americans like you just seem brainwashed. All you hear all your life is that you live in the "greatest country on earth" or even "God's own country" etc. Get a perspective, man! You have as many problems as all the other countries of the Western world. And most of the American superlatives are caused by America's mere *size*. And the story of how you got your hand on so much land is not really a story which should make you proud.
Don't get me wrong. I do like America and I have the fondest memories of my time there. But you must understand that it can get kinda insulting to hear you Americans constantly call your country the f*cking greatest. Man, go read something about other countries once in a while. Or better: go visit us!
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2006-07-27
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Last post!
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2006-07-27
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Yeah, speaking of do's and don'ts, funny how all my comments in my profile simultaneously dropped one point, even though some are several days old and from 'dead' threads.
I also consider this discussion closed.
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2006-07-27
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Normally you would be right, when people start calling each other nazis, the discussion ain't going nowhere. It's an old rhetorical trick.
Now however, nobody was really called a nazi (as anyone who can actually read can tell), it was merely a historical reference.
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2006-07-27
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Wasn't the plane designed and made in america?
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2006-07-27
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A mention is [enough](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).
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2006-07-28
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The downmodding of comments with a contrary opinion, combined with the new feature of 'disappearing' heavily downmodded comments, makes the thread almost unreadable.
Whatever happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?*
If Redddit ony tolerates one point of view, it's flying on only one wing itself, and risks descending to the level of a festival of mutual onanism.
* as not said/written by Voltaire
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2006-07-28
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Thank you timg, they were implying that I was a Nazi. This is what happens to people on the right everyday.
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2006-07-29
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Thank you campingcar that is one of my points, I was down voted for my political leaning not for any other reason.
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2006-07-29
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WTF? Why on earth is anybody hassling this guy? Expressing pride for something produced in this country isnt jingoistic. Nor is expressing pride in your country. If something bothers you about where you live, work to change it. But dont be a little a-hole nazi wannabe by hassling those who dont appear to share your sentiments. What a load of crap and a complete waste of time and energy. Both of which could be better spent trying to engage someone constructively. Instead of tossing around a bunch of subjective, weak ass stereotyes and attacking them.
M
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2006-07-30
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I find it a fascinating story regardless. And regardless of things, and not taking away from anyone else's patriotism or pride in where they are, I am proud of being an American and proud of my country.
So this happened in Israel instead of the USA. It doesn't really matter as it's a great story nonetheless. If you're going to hate the author, with such venom as I've seen here, just by posting up a simple story like this, you're being childish at best. Disagree with him, debate the merits of the story, don't turn it into a mudslinging contest.
Am I responsible for the aircraft design? No, I'm not a mechanical engineer.
Did I land the plane? Goodness sakes no, I don't have the training.
Am I involved in this story at all? Only as a reader of the story after the fact.
And no, I'm not in the armed forces either, never have been, and likely never will be... I'd be disqualified in numerous ways due to my physical condition.
I just like the story. End of rant.
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2006-07-30
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFYy1nWGlhUjdJZjI1aHE5VVJpZTA5U1RHcW1NXzBVY3d3ZXZqZnprZzBUeDIxRERnaHNHQ2Q3VFRzVWJXd21OMGdodU8yNi1kT1plSDhTMXF3bGk0Q0V3aS1wZ1ZXSkhFbmFLNjJhbkNrSnZfcGMwMjhsdWx0aklhelZVb1FrX0VmX3oxaGdVTWtTa1RtT3Btb2g4TzZSTkdpa2N3ZkZid05YY21LQk5hc0FXWW5ya2tKME5HejhlVlZ4WXlDc3Z3
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How can this be surprising to anyone? A tight arithmetic loop is the worst case for interpreted languages like Python and Perl. The instruction decoding overhead alone is enough to account for maybe a factor of 10 in performance difference. When you then look at all the boxing and unboxing going on it's no wonder that the difference ends up being about 100x.
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2006-08-08
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This guy doesn't understand the first thing about how these languages work or how to build statistically valid measurement harnesses.
Move along, nothing to see here.
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2006-08-08
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No. You only decode the instructions once, then you loop like crazy. Boxing and unboxing is no excuse either. With one boxing check Python can see that no overflow will occur for say, the next 1000 iterations, and use an unboxed integer a 1000 times, then box it again, and re-evaluate the constraints.
I agree that this scenario is the worst case for interpreted languages like Python and Perl. However, they should be able to perform a little better than this.
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2006-08-08
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Since most programs spend all their time multiplying numbers in a huge for loop...
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2006-08-08
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Please look up what instruction decoding means. In this particular case where we're dealing with bytecode interpretation it includes both breaking down the instruction word into its components (opcode and operands) as well as dispatching based on this information. The dispatch part is what kills you since you are looking at an indirect jump which is essentially a mandatory branch misprediction and hence a pipeline flush. If the actual operation being carried out is something that would take a small handful of cycles at the assembly language level (such as an arithmetic instruction) then the pipeline flush becomes a totally dominant part of the run-time cost.
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2006-08-08
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"However, they should be able to perform a little better than this."
They would, if this was an important use case for the standard interpreters. It isn't.
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2006-08-08
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It's interesting that he showed these stats, but he should've done more tests, especially tests including string manipulations and pattern matching where, although most likely slower, Perl and Python would've been closer to C++ than numerical tests.
Also, it would be nice to view the code for each program.
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-08-08
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFYzFjTF8wUmVlcVVwRGs0YzFrd0s5M3VwNjZHSUZJLWx6Mk1wVnBhSDl6ekN4S1pTaWxHVFA3dTY4X1pQdGRuZl9sZElOVF90N2dUMWdXMDJrVURTZGc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFOTY1Umd5dDFRZVBUakVFZjRLN29iMzdrYzQ5MGVBUE44NEFvRGk5RTE4dDZaRjZDNWsydG9XMmlmQUFZdmJBZmJRLUptclM1ZHFRUHNzSjQzckdHYk9hUkVfaEpFVHEwYWVPOHptZUhlNUpxR1BDdTJjMHpWTFIzc1NOTkllTkIwaHduU2htS2NDbk1iQ0VVMjM2MHpmZE5UclNteXY5UWVNU2s1UEJyaVlTVVVQZEdPU3lkUDBTUzItLTllM0NheEc3U1dvcWRmTzdYQnZHUHdjY3BLZz09
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I looked it up. You're right.
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-08-08
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFZk1EQVBHZnRSblppc3lRZDRvTDVvTDZIemQyTkg4Vmh0OEJ3ZGhjWkd6UmdmbzIwWExycHZXdlk3SnVpOVJySS1EUTZ2dzJrbkhwNVNWTVhzcDBLZkE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFXzVWcEoyZDVKQnZTeTlPMDFBT01PQThOSmg5emROeFdJTlJodGpDOUhVSlpVOEVnb1dzX1ZVSFJYY25XSFFsSGdNczlVZFYwSUxTQU1hR2NLdHZlaFRlNjJqYW5ORlNkSVdCLUZMTVcxcTJHazBaVXRwRXp1U2FCQ1loaldVR2RqZFFnQWFwUTladTl4U0NEbGt3U29USmVPRjhYalFveE9YdEpJWGtVOHJHWHVYRXNnRzJzUEVxVFZEWnhaY0dqMjc2aTN6XzlXTnJ2b0Q3UGUweEs1QT09
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As mentioned in the comments, adding Psyco to arithmetically intensive Python code is nearly free (2 lines at the top of your file: "import psyco; psyco.full();") and can yield great speedups (2x - 100x).
http://psyco.sourceforge.net/
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-08-08
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFZ3lJQzBfYnpSSDE2VEg4YVZ0QmU1cW1lYUk2cTlOb25KRnZ3TDVxV2RBMUVKMlJiVmFLWEFjaXNSaUsyTDVoaThfeWxDTzFadURhMTgzX3RTd2xMc0E9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFLXg1U0dOS3hRTUJYbnRubVNlbkxuS2wyelJSZGJzRmVDSEY1T0JQQk9NZnhoSDA4YlE4UmZnTTIwSWlVYjR3cV84dzdDRTBrUnRGMkI5NFIwcEkyV21DVHRMVmxNUVlLMi1zeGt3MUUwUS1tSmdPTjIwLXVuaFZNbU9hMXk3ZXh2RVhDMUpNU2dIXzRiUEpDNWZLUWljb3E5aklYY3dpNnVCdEpGR19abVotX0hHOHVCYmU0R2FfblhCNG9HTzUtS0VzWTMwbTY1QmFoVXhmVTBLYUw3QT09
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I'm a big fan of both C++ and python. I have to agree, though, test results are meaningless if source code isn't available.
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r/programming
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2006-08-13
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFNXdJVHhpdDVyWl9aRDk0WGZDcFcycGZqejBJSFlRZi1HZ0syYjhBQkRkTS1xcF82amlJWld6cnJWT00xNU1IUkotOVdteXc5OFlIV2xtMFAzZFZpbUE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFUXN3NTFza2R2NTVpTDVQMlVHMXotbHcyTVRqOHpUeEY4blptS2x3YnA4b2pnTlNmTGs3V1MwM0p6eU13ZnJoSXhQa1lGY3ozNDhJTU5qckJJdmZ1RG14a25kdUVqY2U2VUVteXNuUXdYemZKTkRrSm11ZUstc0FfclJOMENQMkROSzd0YUQ4QjVKdUpuRXRDVW1rSzNmeEtaOVVkOVhPMlM5TzBReGxvcFdEQ2dIdmExRXpuRVl0NHJZZGFwc1dBUjJSbzVjSzhMdUg1RzdNQno2UmppZz09
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I dont know why but I find this very funny. :)
Good spoof.
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r/reddit.com
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r/reddit.com
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2006-09-01
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFYXlNN1BBMHFtZFY4QjdvS3hXQkE1UzFmVjdKUUt0amVwUGU4MWZEVlpTcm44anlLdVNwY3ZUOHoyaWwtZWtvcG91Qk5uR2RhQ085aUFGOXpIcEVRcWc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFVDFDaEloTnYwTXpwVmgxdFJmbnlKV2NOeHgwWW5zZzliQl84cEVNWGgyNUMtYU5rLTlTZzRvR3dJZUFxUTU0SUNZNW9RbnBCUFNNRWxLZHc1SnhjdWFSd0RDX09OZHBNNEpaSzJRSm4xMDdNMjQ3S3hHVGdoSG9hSzVvOVlwejdXZE1yN2g3ZTFMS2FtMVdSTEFfMklXR0RxeFdtSExTdXpUYU9zYS13Q1Q5Umc1WE9BM1J2cXBjaFZxdE1rOHlM
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ENOUGH ALREADY
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r/programming
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2006-09-01
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMXhZSF9BcjZnVkl2d20wbEMtTXRWVjcyZWhJQTJjQnpsSHlna0JhY2pIcndDVk5ta3BmRlJ4RWl4elZVWk8wdFdEZll4SVlGSXkxRWZmWFNyajVFOFE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFTFBHdk56ZlUwU19mOExMcUdvdW1ZT0JSd1hpc2YzVVB6eXFaQ0w5V081TmJjbkd1VVFFUmFWeEJHVUpVLTNTdGFFVlA2dUxsMXpJRHNmTm56UmJaeUdJWkIwaU1SZmxaSndzZXpmXzBTYWRPMGxiUHJ1dmFYZ0RuNkM2ZklILTRrTEE5a2ZTdjN0TGcwbmt6d2xpZTNBXzdRdDMxOWNiOXFyRlNXeTJVT2tIRUhreGN5OV9VZlV1b25CUTVCWG1p
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Are you kidding? This is better than the heavy weight championship of the world! I suggest we settle this with a fight to the death in an iron cage.
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r/programming
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2006-09-02
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFcUNmeUpTeDZRSmdnT2ZzSFliLUs3RUF0cVZIU25RalNack5mSW9pM21ta01IT24zWlZ1eHlYYlVlNHg0MUlpbGhEUmNJaTJnUm9JWURzMzdrOVBib1E9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFUjduN1d5MXh5NnlycnpUZWNxVlZYdGpna0ptQjRmZ3B2VXNWRnVSQlQzUVRabHIyRnMxaGZTeUt1b1ZYZjl1TWJCUkw1QmN5bXp6Ukh4T3F3dllUbmdLdTNnSlp5cUlNaDYzM1RhZ0NHNW5jQTBMQWE4R0E5cUZYSzRJVXFzV1RVb2tPakpXWm5BUG9KOTRuR1lZUm9QWFgzZXZ3Z2JZRWU1ZUNiWTlRSG44eFh6QmZWV0l2QkY1c1ZoQ3BpRTJw
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It least it's not as repeating as "Bush is an idiot" articles
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r/programming
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2006-09-02
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFNHlRd1JGV0w5anY5bVJ4RzRmQ3dsOGtHcVZ5c0VCdEtHaEx2cm1WZm9WVmoyX0RIeEpfRU5XQkdrbDJMWTNxcEY3aHdPVjdBeVF2REdPM0NQZEREZHc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFQlVvVDNFbGliSU5qWUJjbXpVcTdTbkJtaHFNbmxrelJoQWtyWkJjYmFmRGhLd0VlYTh5dFU5T2Z5NmpKUzNiYk9wRjQ5WGZPV1BfN2gwaU9xcDZzdl8tbUhOeTU1bzdRRC1WbDA0VHQ2VjJMdEFYQVpFWmJnY2M2ZV9HLWlCZy1KaC15UnFpUzBLTXg3ZjJEbHdRUklqSGRuOVpBRXpyYnl1dlk2aTdFVUJ0SWpITmJaYW4yMkdhR1RaQ09KSU9D
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An antidote to the terrible "10 Programming Languages You Should Learn Right Now" that's doing the rounds.
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFRGRYVHlEVUc3dVBsS09MOGQ1NVpZZ24yM1BFLTBaUnF0YXB1NFQ3V3E3YnFRWDZaNVQtQ21aZlczSDhtclJ5SVQyWEp1UFFHbWx1RDUxOHdCV0twZnc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFV3dObjl3M1A0azg4cG5EUGtsY3YtdGc1eTg1MDdVcHN2V2ZLVkJnUzZ5bF9ybHVndjgyaXlNOUZIRFY1c2ZjYzUzYXExUFhzZlY2dlpVb3V6bDdpVFpkX1A1MElSa1JtZkdpejNwRmg1dzBoU29uaU5NWDdmSzU0R2V1bVk1VWllUDkyYXhTZURLaVRTX3M1NmFLWlh6MXROMXdidVQ4SGhaRV9GTHpPc0N3dkZDRy1jdE9OM0J3TXA3Q3Bac0JFdWY5MVF2T21EWFp1dDBQZWdDUk90Zz09
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*Python: [...] The OO feels tagged on.*
What a crap. In Python, even function are real first class objects, unlike in some (* cough * Ruby * cough *) other languages.
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFVFVhUVNRNXZsT0pvZnBEdXVDeWtzbmc4SGR0bVpIQXFhaG8zLUJ4WVhQYlhWbEZKeGlKRi1vbktWQnRFTDk3dGFrdDVYc3pvMTgycHhQbTZBamtGUlE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFeHc1YnJ0NVNOWjhHeTZ5Q1NlSThROE1MRjFDV2VfaWxUOWtUUktIRHFMbFhiSmszN21EdTJuVUZuYmc1R21YazUyN1VHOFpCQk1UWEJWSl93VldXX2lOR3p4dUZlVFdMMGZ3SVYzNE1PS0hpS1FwVW1yYzV2LTJEZUJJdm5sWklEMVphWUZlaU9mN2w1RnpFV3ZEbVBKdlZ1WmZidlhZX2tZR2hCcmZfZlpmdDA3ZEM1d1dtNjBlaWVlVlFWSGFzTWpDelpoZlgtZ3FaX0I2bWVFZENqUT09
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Isn't that about functional programming?
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r/programming
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMWk3a2tybnp2eFNSc0NwQ3pDTWdiSFhxT2xmb0M4S09FTUVOOGw2T1NrbkhKVUJoQWNpWlJwNVotTWdKQm13NVEtNHFZc1l0ZDM2bHVtVVI1WEg1cmc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFZjhJdjc3ZEI3X0JNQVUyelhfSTFSVEJ1R1hFelhaTzI2bnNRSWlTZGx2dzhRaXZsbTVPWjh1YldLNkU3V3k0UGVDaG1qZ2hKemtLbjQtU3R5RUpjbXhvRXpuX0hCaVBxSTdQdEFhNEZvZnJiM2dMQjlTbXgybTRNYWhGQ09JWWV2SlA1MzI1eUFzVXlwRHBDUGo1UXVlcmc0TFhrMzNicEFpeTZzQndoTl8zRHlxWmJoQ2dmbXpXWDNoTGE0dHFWNEQwSExTX2F2SXpwVnVZOTU0YnlyUT09
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> Python - Dynamic, fairly intuitive, list comprehensions are great. But explicit self? No ternary if? Significant whitespace? The OO feels tagged on.
I'm afraid silly issues like this are going to follow Python around forever, even though they are *so* insignificant.
Okay, so you have to pass in self when you define instance methods. Big deal. You don't have to do it when you actually use the method. It never has been something that gets in the way.
def meth(self):
instead of
def meth():
I mean, really, how is that an issue?
Ternary if? Never found not having it a big deal (it is easy to fake anyway), but it [is on the way](http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0308/).
Significant whitespace - again, this isn't a problem once you start using the language, and it has the advantage of producing some of the cleanest code you'll find in any language. Sure, it is a disadvantage when you can't use Python directly in HTML (ala ERB), but it is debatable whether that is good to do.
The OO feels tagged on how exactly? Everything is an object just like Ruby.
It just seems like most of the time people complain about Python it is because of little petty and/or inaccurate things like this. I really think you'd be doing yourself a disservice not to learn both Ruby and Python, because both are similar and thus immediately easy to pick up after you have digested one, but both have slightly different ways of doing things. I'd take Python's module system any day of the week, but Ruby also has some neat things to offer like everything being an expression and of course blocks.
I think if you have to learn *one* of those two, then you are better served going with Python because it just has more tools available to it.
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r/programming
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFVldZckxUbC1nVF9ObXBhanJOMVpVdUdxaTJZQUVJUGVUUFBLdFBGRnk0dFVNYnB4LUlfaVNFcTlDUUpXb2FobVdNQkFxRF9PLVBCZ2tYSnlMa29lVGc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFbk1kekpJN2ZSU1NFdFhidUkzMW1kR2dFVGNEcVc4aHlSeXQ0aGFkeE1VaF8yTXI1NjZGbFdCZmxoaXZiOHdmOGtsbU5mcnhaME14aEVrRFJJTDVDQnlpZU5EYjdhbW0tVFRzY0c5WGd6TUtJcFU4SXFEWUlUNVFwSWE3WDlzT3VMZHpIa1RWLXNmeFZheTVxN2xRWjA4ZkFFRExYUlZ6ZjR4ckpCQktTUE10X21lOU9xa1YzYkRES3pzdjRSVEE3bU0wdkZvckVoNm51UDlLR3c0cHBHdz09
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no it's not.
both articles are frankly stupid and wrong.
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r/programming
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFaUllUUxjSDJiXzk3eS1kUUUxeGtQVmd6RHhsamgtajRTZzRIRVp5dlJFQUtkeXFIQ1JQSDhKS3FnS0JpSmdPNDUxVDhteTBlZ2xtN3d2SFBuMWpoNHc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFdmhhTkNNWmxwcEhZa1JwWUl5dHpkWkpmT1p5SU5mdWNFUEVVNkloWHVhejFoZTJWNi1HSm0zS0w2UTd2NmtRY05sLXZtQkhzMWp5N0tLUjVOVDM0bjRaUEluMkNUeWI1MlFUYWx0a2RFeDB4MGx5M0owQ0xhTGcyX2Zud0xQelBMXzY0NmtBYW9JM0NnQkxjaXpjbjhVMFZLLWpzNWVCR2dNNlRfNHB0eU1SUjJvZlktSW9ZMHZ0MHBqSnRtdExuU1JWZHV0RHpIR3Y0NXp0ZE91TjllQT09
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> Significant whitespace - again, this isn't a problem once you start using the language, and it has the advantage of producing some of the cleanest code you'll find in any language.
I'm not sure that there's *no* cost to whitespace-sensitivity; it does, for instance, complicate Python's lambda statement: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=147358
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFUjhYYWZIRG5DTVJLRkdzNzVsSE1VVzFsZHFBZ2JJQ3ZlV2h5RlVSbXZvbVRFU19fTHdYUFhET2tSMUtxSlpsZXJ6dWhOQ2p6Z1hLVDlhbHJ2V3FUSkE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFcWVxSGlNcUxwcEh0SmxGQW5hTGktR0VKcU9Da3R6dGdxNHZDcVloRHF3TE1ZdFd6aGVhODlhcEVQdFUwYWlvcDZFM3dQZVY2QkdCNmpwYXR6b3Q2M0JXY1BTajQtWXJSRnlHWWcwYzRad29oZ2xueU03bkNKU3gtTjctMG03clMxbTlSTkNCeXFpUXNyN1AwWUxFSml6dGJ1bWhobnFRUUtjRjRyR0ZUcmZnTE9NSG53ajhONFAyQWFNeWZPY25rTTBpYndGcDJCOGp5QnZwUTNTUGFYQT09
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I never found significant whitespace to be a problem writing programs on my own (including a mid-sized GUI app as well as learning stuff). As soon as I started working in a team with tabs/spaces and editor differences it annoyed me. Yes, fairly easily solved. All of these points are minor annoyances. But choosing between Python and Ruby you only really have minor things to go on. For me, Ruby has less of these and "feels" cleaner.
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMHFOVm13X09KNjBsX0dIM3NhYklkc2ZHaWsyZ0VTbXY4Ukx4by1sNFFrc004N05BdWlCTi1vZGxkR25kNnVMZ0cxWkNxcVduME9yMHdGT0dXSlZNRkE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFam1UU1dLS2tUUC0yeS1GVVVqMTZsUUpiNWs3SWdSdTE0NHJfRUFzcElyb1lpNDlnbF8xMjAwaTJ2N0hIXzRDZndGOThrY3JXM1hHMlg1YjMwM1Y3NnpUQi0tMU1kUEo3U0phZ19ZRFljMzJXVGtKYjkyMDBiNUNobmJqa2RwNWFqSGhzQ0hrMml5VWRkYWdzVk5tOTlwcUF3Ymp1OWhQYkM3ZlZVcUxMbUlDSFlrcmJFNWZkdTFhNzNseFhtS3U3bDRhSnhpeklaQnJ5cnh6Y1FaeVlUdz09
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The article is very poor that it's not even worth discussing. He's dissing languages based on...wait a minute...based on nothing. For example, he boo-boo's C# for silly reasons. And what does he propose as a good RAD language, then?
Just move on.
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFT1BNRzlXcnA1VDdJNmZSSG5aSkNRY09FXzBnSmtHOUNHZlFDdlZIRGlhWjlEeFNSSzRIQ0hJTS1MYzlRTzV4UkRXQ1ZoLWlQbUU5WE5TcHNTd3FmNWc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFSXlyUlhhYzc0ZWhTTmZCU084aTVseGFrdGRYaFNhbDdHS01oOGg1MGc4WmhEbG1aNG9BY21vZzFWa1BpUzV0dE9Nb1BLMk84Z3FhSlZ1aFAzVjJHTzdNM1RtOXRPN3pNZUhXY0QxX0E1R05rT2pqckk5UTE5NzlFYmRhR2Yza1BPdWxoVmg4QzFyWXlQTWhOQWQyQzB0S09QV2QzS3V4bGc0OVRzeE81dVVoQWVPV2lCOWtwR2VFMTE4OEdkTVUxUkNCa2gtd3UyUUhxUDlTUHozMVRWdz09
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Forth - stretch your mind down
Haskell - stretch your mind up
Assembly - because if you cannot anticipate the machine, your code in any language will stink
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFVVFJTGUwTDNLM29GSE9uSTJIWVVLYW4yN0MtOVhROHBXZTBvdHhsTzZ0MmM1czNsUTBWenUyZmtFZEFBVzdlSmxxZlZDaFBFbW91RVp2REVfM0xsS3c9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFVEtuQnExbUpNT0JnTWJOT0NhemlTUlJYbEJFV0huRGR3b29YVnFfZnZDbEk4cHg3aElPbGt2UHE2TkdsM1NMVWhub05saDRoWUk3QXo0RGlCYmQ2TnYwV1VnSVF5dG51V0NlTk9XZGphenFqZGRPbEZtcGVfWmJLQTBEWFVqRm05VDZsY2U3RlVTbG1nWDVmbXRvQXN0R1dMNjVRYlJOclVVZWVleXdpSk51bUxYYkFQT2NmLTN4Wm1sN2N3TGFfTFFucTZpYTJqeXRWcHBlb1ZqbUJVUT09
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Multi-line lambdas? Just use a function..
Really, there is no appreciable expense to whitespace when your editor does it for you, ala emacs.
I always run my c through "indent" anyway though, I dont see this as a huge deal in any major language.
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFNnhIRFF6WG1qZ2FrQzJRcENjYlItNU9NeUVBajItNjVva1Fna3dWWUc2cTVTa0puMTB0aExHd2RkeTctdml1M3hvYVUtWmg2SkM0Q2M2d3R6eEtFTXc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFYXJZUGpSSWVLUm5yVXBUU1VuQ1RPRFhEd3NTM0drcV9XVEpzQVFNcjhSZlZuTHAteW1xZmRnRkwyb2VScGhWeG1TQ185V1FsWUQzVHhmYUVXUmw0XzgwNzhta09BMi1HOEN2eFFObE0xVXExcE94OEZ1Y1FyT3NaZjg0T2hKcW1ZekZ1X2dSelM1V0FCdmRHazZkYW1YSExSenlFYUFuaFdfZVBtaXRwSUY0MDlDUjJIRGFtZ0dJeVVTc05BM0lBUDYyaDlod3lxZnlaUGVYd2dxa3JoQT09
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True. But ruby has Proc and blocks. And Python's lambda is fairly poor. I'm not sure why the OO feels tagged on. Stuff like:
len(arr)
not
arr.length()
???
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r/programming
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFeWRGUTlXbmRwUzcwd3JVS0pDZTBsSno1bi04d2s2LWNYYnFMVnNGRk9hNW0yWUc4Rkp1QmNVYXhEVXMxdlh2X0lGZmFQdENkYmdSTElWVnI3Vk9UOEE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMjI3LXc4MzA5MDJzQXhxUmJ6S1lraFd6TWhlTUExMHh1aDhZMXV4ZEZzaW0zeFp1MnlTbjhuOWVScC1lUC12V1Q4QWxQSDVxaHpvdnZwa0JGVEk0d0hpU3ZTcHhyald4ZzR0SzJkNnBnaWxseE1HRkJUem1ZZVlMWjZ2NVd3cWw5SkxGMGY3a0o4OVFWYjd3VWJybWJmX014ZXFaMF9GT0Ntd3UtZzUxdUdmSzhwVjhKdFZLREM0cDRFaDRNRkd4WnFqQWFONVpnLVFMeU1sS0d4cDRKdz09
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You really think Assembly still? Can't an optimizing C compiler do a better job than an Assembly programmer?
I've had a tiny peek at Haskell, but not Forth. Interesting suggestions.
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OO is garbage that needs to be collected;)
A huge number of OO "patterns" are **replaced** by the features of dynamic languages anyway.
proc and blocks? I think I still prefer python's new generators.
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Any programmer who is genuinely interested in bettering his skill set should divest himself _immediately_ of puerile bigotry. Discarding C# as "Microsoft's flavour of Java" is misinformed, ignorant, and belies a misguided idealistic stupidity that is at direct odds with the stated goal of refining one's mental abilities.
This is really a classic pot/kettle situation. The only improvement of the linked article over the 10-languages article is that it is shorter, and thereby wields less volume. It is not clear, however, that this translates to a direct decrease in the amount of blatant retardation in the article; in particular, the BS-per-volume ratio seems to be roughly equal, with fewer quotes from random people who don't know what they're blathering about.
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Languages have philosophies. To me, Python's philosophy feels petty and uninspiring, and as a result the language bores me sick. It really runs very little further than "Python shall be a tolerable, learnable, readable OO scripting language"
By contrast...
Perl: "flexibility inspired by human linguistics"
Smalltalk: "everything is an object"
Haskell: "code should have the purity of math"
Forth: "you only need a stack"
Lisp: "unify code and data"
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> Multi-line lambdas? Just use a function..
A lambda is a function!
Regardless, I didn't say this limitation is a serious one--but the amount of discussion this receives on Python lists suggests that the expense may be more appreciable than you claim.
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Assembly is one of these languages that you need to know not so much to use it for real (unless you're programming fridges or something), but because it improves your ability to think about real programs and to anticipate the implementation details of various sorts of data structures and control-flow abstractions.
Edit...I'd say the defining thing an assembly programmer learns is: the source code is not the program. The source code is something that tells your compiler what general sort of program you want. But the program that actually runs on the computer is a sequence of very *un*abstract commands which are limited by the real features of your computer's architecture (such as cache misses, the precision or bounds of various types of arithmetic, stack memory, etc). The abstractions leak.
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Hi ApochPiQ,
As a programmer who is genuinely interested in bettering my skill set perhaps you can help me out.
I've only written a little C# (less than six months in one job, nothing in my free time) although I was a Java programmer for a fair while. What would you say are one or two of the significant advantages of C# over Java, or some important points of deviation?
Thanks,
Tom
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> Stuff like:
> len(arr)
> not
> arr.length()*
len(arr)
is a shorthand for
arr.__len__()
, where
__len__
is a special method name for list-like constructs that is used in iterators etc. Since all special-methods in Python use the underscore-syntax, this is quite consistent.
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How am I supposed to learn more than one language "right now"?
I'm checking out Haskell, but I doubt I'll have really absorbed all the ideas in the language in less than six months.
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To you it feels consistent. To me saying:
arr.count(1)
for the number of ones in the list, and
arr.pop()
to pop the last item off a list, but
len(arr)
for the length of the list seems fairly inconsistent.
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True. It's a daft title. But it's an echo of the original one, rather than a suggestion to buy five O'Reilly books and start reading them simultaneously while typing on five keyboards!
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I like my language boring. More brain power for hacking.
Have you read the [Zen of Python](http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/), if you are into philosophies?
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Personally I have always found the tabs vs spaces and size-of-indention arguments to be much more easily resolved than bracket placement.
Especially when you have PEP 8 giving guidelines that are more are less followed by the standard library. Then anyone who wants to use tabs instead and anything besides four spaces per indention has to justify why we should be using anything besides what the core libs are doing.
> But choosing between Python and Ruby you only really have minor things to go on. For me, Ruby has less of these and "feels" cleaner.
Python, to me, "feels" cleaner. I chalk it up to being abused with VB and Perl at an early stage of my development as a programmer. (all in the same semester) That said for pure prettiness of code neither of them can touch Lisp.
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> Languages have philosophies. To me, Python's philosophy feels petty and uninspiring, and as a result the language bores me sick. It really runs very little further than "Python shall be a tolerable, learnable, readable OO scripting language"
What, do you feel, is Python's philosophy? "[...]be a tolerable, learnable, readable OO scripting language" is not a philosophy.
> Perl: "flexibility inspired by human linguistics"
In that case I submit the difficulties anyone experience in learning English as a second language as an argument against ever using Perl. In English if someone has a bit of trouble expressing themselves correctly due to the labrynth of grammar rules, we just interpret what we can and get over it. Computers are incapable of this behavior.
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I've written code in all of those; do I get a prize? This list is fairly well rounded, but it really should have included Haskell, the most mind-expanding language I've encountered. It's proof that a pure functional language, with no mutable state and no side effects, can do anything an imperitive language can do. Haskell programs are usually more concise than their imperitive counterparts, and I've often been amazed at the way Haskell programs just work once they pass the type checker.
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I hadn't, and it's interesting, but I believe it illustrates, rather than disproves my point.
First, Python fails on its own terms, because it *is* a complex language - complex conceptually. It has no purity, and so it cannot be anticipated. This also makes it suck to read.
Second, "practicality beats purity" is a mistake. The features of a pure system snap together and interwork, which is the source of most of their practical potential. For example most of Python's "functional language" features are pale shadows ofthe real thing. Your list comprehension just spits out one whole, fully realized list - it isn't a shorthand for lazy generators of infinite lists. Your lambda is limited to one expression in a language where you can't do anything of significance in one expression. There isn't the clean concept of Currying which defines the difference between a lambda that immediately applies itself and a partially applied lambda waiting for some variables. Nor can you use currying to turn any function or operator into a lambda. There aren't proper closures, so a lambda can't carry state. Your only lazy data structure is an xrange, and all that does is spit out consecutive integers.
...And so on.
Something like Smalltalk would be simple like Zen; small, imperfect, but unified without disharmony. Python is simple like a simpleton, a jumble of features nailed roughly together and painted purdy.
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> Significant whitespace - again, this isn't a problem once you start using the language, and it has the advantage of producing some of the cleanest code you'll find in any language.
Does anyone know if there are other languages created since that have significant whitespace? Maybe a Lisp without the ending parentheses?
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Haskell.
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFYjNVRnNNdVBxemtybE1PeGtzdDY1b08wTHJKRmcyMmZVLUNncEdRQ2VHV3RmeTlXTzc0N1NKc0pFYjVzWGJ4TjZpMjF6MGpGRTNQUTlkNnd4ZjRWZ2c9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFekdxT1JaQ3pxRnJQQjBGWEhOc0RiUVJONW5TcXE1dWVHaldWQ2VmVU5LOGN2bUhJUjQ2YmJxQVZzRzhxbGFpTDlvLXVjZnkxLUF4TkpEUFBLU0J0eC1EQU05bnpuQmhMOXdRajk0UTFRS3E4M0doNmZGbGtLNThRbTh3c2NaV25MZ0FacHVYNXlheF9BaUE0anVyZWJsUzhUalVoR0w5TU5EYW80N3R5U2JCUE5pQU5UMkp3Z25hYmpzSTJfWFM4dTY1dkxzZHEtZm0wOHJsUldVWmQ3dz09
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>What, do you feel, is Python's philosophy? "[...]be a tolerable, learnable, readable OO scripting language" is not a philosophy.
My point was, it's all they have, and it's not a very good one.
However, I believe I wasn't quite fair to them. They do have a philosophy, but it's more like "to blazes with the language, read the code!"
As to Perl, I wasn't excusing it. But it does have the feature, like English, that a practised user can be *very* fluent, terse or pedagogical, and can make the form on the page a quite accurate reflection of the concept in their head.
Of course, this all confuses the poor foreigner, who must reach for his grammar reference and dictionary.
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFRU9pcHRVeUVoZWRmWWlZSEVLY1Q1aWdsZDNHbGNfdWRrbzBPYWh1azRacG1GZmNtVHZlTXE4UFZGMXhvNC1NMWMxd1FxdF9jRzRYUWQyWjJkVWlxTXc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFWEVXODJQSEZNbjRhWG1TR1NjVzRzUTdad0Zlb0VfNWhjMy1VS1NIbE85TzBhNGxnVUNVU2ZiMVJyaXNySVNoMmtzdnFaV01BMEh3QWQzd3lhNFVIS0xFMVB4QVlEQmZYN1hRT0UxdlJqWFRNcV9rNjQ3NzVPeXczeEdLZDVyZEZrS0s5Wko4emROM0k0NFktWHJ1TmFtcElRYjdKX3djdk1rcmlDcUpkMjZvV3ktUEVCMXNaRFphdGVrdnN6MFlSTUp5MDhodHJsRlN0Uk84S1R6cnRxUT09
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What about SQL, regular expressions, bash, xml? I guess the author of this article thinks they are obvious. But those are also programming languages. Very focussed and not suitable for all types of problems, yes, but I cannot imagine doing my work without using them.
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFc3hsNHluSV83Q2c3SHlPQXJvUzEya2d2LWZCQ3JWR2s4VXUzMzRJWWJBTlBibTZmeWJtRjBMVi1SLW5yTXhvTmFleUpuX2U3Ri1QSU9uclFnZld4YXc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFaF9VN2NiZWVmSm9zZkd4TDhhM2VNd0ZHWFFZRVlweTRyZFc0Y1ZVWXhNaDJrb3pCbGtCQmdGczNNR2E3a3Fza2Z1d1hIWHdCazFfNkQ3dWFhaHR2a1ZPWXdaRWlxUzB0TVRVNDBTWlhaMVpNY0RQVHgyY01jTF9fa1pqellydFpyOTYzbFFrT3NwVE44MDNHNEpzREZYNEJsVGRMX2N4eUlVZExFcWd1a3E3WjRjSnBQWGxETTdUOXNYZHcyYldDNHUySF8tLVk4UVdrTzU5dlYwLXJuUT09
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Python and Haskell are the same age. They both went public in 1990.
Also, no indentation sensitive Lisp ever got popular.
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFWmJXSDhPYm9CMktWdkszTEw5eDNXZk1LWVNQQVY5TTRkcG9RamRwM2VUZWxvNi1Mb29nNmFkQ2g1ZGUwWnFzZDJKWFFPWGRJQnh5WERlQzBCN1BVWnc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFbUZLSXBjSHltLVMybzdFWkt2VnJMR3hqTlJpMEw1LUxXQldBUVhDbmxIUEhzakVoX3BTb04zclF6Rl9KN0VrSy1SUnNpS3laM2Z4SVNYcmdhQVp0T1JkWGhCbV9NNWtQNEZ0eXlwYy1JcURMNWVybEd0RWF2TnRaV1IwQVpqMWY3enMwdHBSaC1MRlNyZlVJU3lBUDJfUlJkQWZjQWxHcDRUNFBXbnRrRV9ES2dkSnF1YS1xRkJnTzVpWVhTdEY3R0RNRVQxZG9qUDg3Q05nQlJzYlUyZz09
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Only one of these suggestions is qualified -- the others are absolute, even the one that is suggested by the first's qualification. Morever, it offers Lisp-1 as 'purer' than Lisp-2 -- probably because its author is unfamiliar with those terms and therefore doesn't know better than to assert the primacy of one in this manner. It also fails to refer to all of: a concatenative language, a vector programming language, or a self-consciously functional language (ML, Haskell). Finally, it conflates the value of "making things fast" (where O'Caml, say, would offer itself) and the value of "making inner parts of Python+etc. programs fast", where C is clearly of unique value.
And the rationale for Ruby is "because I like it." Fascinating.
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2006-09-16
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFZ0I4Ymd6WWdBT0QycmJ1T082WW1adWYtQnMwX2M0YjJQZjVWZXQyTFZFZVJ5XzBwdDZJRmpVcjQ4SXR0NkRyamZqN1M2ZEFqaFh1bEMwZnBrZXNYX0E9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFQ2pnczJSckEydU5UOENqc0N3ZjRKNjQzLXFNX01USElSZFhsNWo0amdyWXRqY2dQbkZfSjVNQ19nLWg3S3hQUl9ZdnV3a3VWaEVQSllmZFhzZ1FoM194SXh6QkNtcHBUOG1QQ0w0aVdiMlktaDhpOFIxeUpTVXd5MXVBYnUtaklRWWpDd3kySHBRMGlHaDY1QURvdlpwSE5DbjliX1gwV2ozRTZRNlVOclVZNmQwVVVia3dHaXBNRTZtZmx3RjZBT3NXMkhMSEJXYlNYOEFVZVY0aEdEdz09
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Haskell's is actually more fiddly than Python. Python just has "indent begins a block, outdent ends a block". Haskell has "if you leave off a '{', then less indentation means '}', equal indentation means ';', more indentation is a continuation of the preceding line".
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFbDI2X2lwOUlEb1ZiMEhZUURBdzFoZVlYcVZOdjNERjU4aWpOMHk1WWtXZEJLV2h0aEY1dDBySmFLcUdVOGZ3TjhZRlVpeS1VSDd2emxRajdQaWN6OEE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFemJRQ3RoTzlpNTl4Zy14MWl2bDNtNUZ2WGlCVVJWT1FjN0VDTVRvVmZtcWh3UjVnY2lTV3lacWFiMU9ZbkZ4RHBTVENLaFV0bktlUGY5b0ZDb1hVandUUi1tN3lnMExHcU5PSTJPcnU0cUkyZ182NXJ3T2hRQTkycm1qWnp3Smh5dzlyN2Ftb0g5REJtYW03MHN1VDRhcVNEaFFBRVpPSkJlTDJCSnRFMDI0Smx5X3pOeGJ1RndpbE9rOC1tR2ttVHpSYV9tRUpSZWRBREVoV09fOEVJUT09
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Prolog - Logic programming languages will remind you of the good old days when computer science made your mind stretch.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFdlpBYmVMdUFKQ1pwdTVEVzhKZkFfN3g4MjdyM1d3REZoazViOE5QaFNMNTZleEZ6NWctQW53d2laYXFTUGNYN255a29iOWpEeTVZamgyZVJOX29kTFE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMWpaZnlKSDg2Yk9wd1lfZkpndU10akdJOHNDbkVGWXMzRzlxUDJzb2hjMlV6OWItbVlmdGR4VjFyeGkxV2RlZXN2cUlOUXFWWFRiUmRvdEIzeWxRVTZ6X1dfalJCQ21QZzB0d0doREhvWkVCNXNYTXBFMTAtMnZHbG5iT2UyNUVqUUJKRjNlakZKQ1VqQUM0V2pzYXRMbzBOcmR2S0RwVjdBR2haNTdLSVdaOFFVVnJjc3VIU0VpbC1XWUt0M3RIN3ZBWktZN2tEQ0pRSW9HazdtNVRSUT09
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> Python: [...] The OO feels tagged on. -- What a crap.
Ways to know that OO has been hacked onto a procedural language:
1) You have to type 'self' in the declaration of every method.
...
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFekpRQjl4akpWREl2dVNZWVgzZzhoSDBabWUxU015bmlvQS1xOXcyZzRKdkw4NFRteW9pNWlaYWxZQWdKcHBxYmxtZFVjU1ZEbmtrWmxLZVVZQ0NOWkE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFNmR0R0R4d253NGwwRTFVVloybkFnTDQ4LWdGUmRQdTVGdUhydjAzcUp6Q25wTEdrVl9tUXVTMVRVcnNaeXIxXzhFMU14bTlBWmVoYzZZVm11WGR4d3VOUndmTFJkY19MQXFGbjJQWWwzY2RZZGNGcmk1Zm9BZ1pnSlR0aTEzS0FldmpKZ1pETXpaV0FLY3ozU0xacUZQRnBPUkNfTTdtMUkyUi1oNTZERkZMWU5wdHBJb0Y5YlNzSlZIbUhfUjRlcW9EYmk5V0ZaeDdrOG5fTXJQNVRZdz09
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> Your only lazy data structure is an xrange, and
> all that does is spit out consecutive integers.
Small nitpick: generators are all over the place in python. You can make your own easily with the yield statement. So you can do quite a bit of lazy work there.
But in general, you're right about the functional programming features being pretty weak. :/
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFR0EzVVBWWnRVQ3dIeUNCSEx6WlRnOHM0X0tsVExDcnpfVXVtT3dBR3lBbExDRzMyUko3TEw4d2Q1Skp2T0JzTkZKM09wVVZ4Ym1RSjNVMmM0MVg4UEE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFWEg1d3NoWXJvV3JPMWJTQ0cxU3ZOLUJMUldlRDRRRWpsZ3FRYVpMRVhOY2x0bEtxa2tGYi1sOHBLVjVvOUVLcG00VHI4SzJqUUY1UG01UU9tSHREeF9UVVQzMUJWNWVaVnk2Mk1EbjZVYjNXX2F6Y0JzcTVMak1jY01KQ0F4YXhhNldCOE5UR3lxNzNINnVBZ2tFbmE5a0ljZ3F2dUxDeEs2MWRjWUs3YVBTMDJmUVRWaVRIQkFzWFJkQ3dQMlJfT050WERZVExMMDVvSVpRVVQ2STdwQT09
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Well, thanks for your sophomore expertise. Now go back to writing your Java-assignments about design-patterns or whatever it is you US-Americans do instead of real CS.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFaTVZd0tzRzV0ZHpSNjRYQmRLX25qUFMwTkhNbVc5SVBkVUY2ekJkdkNSVEE4WFVxV1BsVXpaQ3FQb1kwUjhyT2dRc3VzN1FCb3I1UVJDaWJYb2RPd0E9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFX1dHWThPcDZwWHJ4VFNHdHFGeExlbDVrNWhIZzVhNmNhYXlOUTlzR095aUplYU9Ca0lIUzR2dWZaQ040OHpMU0QwcEVibDhmZFRVeWZUOWtTZFJJQ0wwZ0lvQ0NKNGI4UlVYZDU4amNGQklZcDJobUNXR3RNMW90ZV82TlVxX0pDYVpFdU5zb1pCU25jWVFFR0xpMzktVU9UUGVOT0xKWlh0MmxmUGoyYkYtOFFVMGlLb3U1X2tZX3paMkJpbW1oLUN1ZjlNYmdRMlJJdG9uMHIyZXBHUT09
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It's probably moved on since I last looked at it. Like all languages it will have been dragged upward in the gravitational pull of Greenspun's Tenth. In fact, peeking at the new upcoming Python standard, I see you're about to get Currying. Eh well, Python and the rest of them will soon arrive, weary and puffed, at the peak of funtionalness, wherepuon they will be greeted with "thank goodness, what took you so long" by Haskell, Clean, Ocaml, SML, and Scheme.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFVWRzSnhWUEp6UE5JZFdrc1FqaDBOSDM5U2RLc3VYWkJYUXVDRlFCZGVIZHgtT3owNkJqYUQxWVg2ejRNOGNudV9RbkRpZi1SaUN5OHJSUlZUNnNhTFE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFa1pfdDJiQWlfd0VnemJ3cFdNMUdkMHVjZEtZUU9Yc2Q3SDBBTEhKS0xxWUdISi0wQkV6dmhENHU1NnRoRWVHOFBNeEhBZ1U1UkFHS3hiQUxCUC1EZ3YtQ1diaG44Q2pJa1ZzczQ3ZHZQRXUwUVpheTZXQ1lQd29sZ2FWSlpUWDlkczNlSUViWkF3TEg1Nkt5TmlBYW1YRHF3SnVnZmhxVlJRcVhQdXpPQ1lSMU10Y0dmR3pDVXRHZTJ2N3FzNWFtWllwcjJFNTYwV2pvY09XUUZjdnBTUT09
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I'm not sure about bash but none of the other languages you mention are programming languges.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFUXFZTG9WYjY4Q3RiZmtQaDNXZTdBanhyNmVkVkZMbWVyT0NiZi0xT2p6bURQT3c1VXQtYkYxSE5mYUMwdFhmUTQxanVOV2VFWTJrN01UTllXSEFGT2c9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMnVFS1M3TEJMU2JuWXBnMTEtemtsZjhpVlZQSlJhVzdnQndlZFVmalJjYTJxYXh6SkhNRkFyNHBTQXVXWkFmMWFGX1JMUjJUM1ZYcFRZd1dyWkw0dks0VVlNNWtIYWcwbjl2ZkpBNm5KQlRjb2V0UGxNTGVtQUVYWk5PeFM3Z0FPbXNDRVh5b3pHbUlTTXR1aVJqankzYThQT1NlQTB2NGdVbnJaZGhyQnl6MVplbC11YXV6M2E1MUxfQThQeU1XbVZGQW1sRTVZRE43VDRvMGQwQzQ0Zz09
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You're funny.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFT2J2djhQMHlxaGRXUlF0aU9Kcm9TbmN6T0kySkZqb2NUQVVvc2pkbDIyRlpYYjFwS2lpS3J3bk5yWUhIQms2WlAwYWJpcHhFZ3FPeGJfWkozREo5SXc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFVFZlc25aSzV4enVIc2VrVXFkQmN4NWpodTV6RUtBaWtRSEl6S2JNNEVCVGJPR1VpOU9QT3Z6YUlFVzB2ZS16TU1tazhqd3VuLUYwTmQ2MDNiSGg4Mlg5NElWUVNYemxrTVhXeWxmZlEwcWF2clh2d1RadEZxZFY1dnVqak0tSDlza3c0LWkyQU02VEJGOUh5MThnR1pMN2xlc19iQ1VrX3BVTm03SGVLbkNnVVlGVzJUWjNzOUF4Qll1SmpjQ0dfT2JSOEJ2d3VfNzNoNThqSXd3blNGQT09
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I like ‘self’. In fact, since learning Python I use ‘this->’ a lot more in C++ to remind me when I’m using instance data.
(To each his own…)
Also, it’s not tacked on, it’s by design. I’m pretty sure at PyCon a couple years ago it was mentioned that they had the option to remove the ‘self’ requirement and chose not to.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFSkpVSXlQX1YyY0ZGcmc5Ym5WcWdZdkVkNUxCd1Brdm1LYjRhYWJmNklMRjZHVXRYSm15eGVKOFNLX0NrX2J5VlVtekEtZ3pZLXRNazQwZ18zN3M0cUE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFLVFuamg1cEpnRnJJakZfZlJJbkduUDFTSkpXVmNpa1hKZW1kNDFnaWFVcUZjWWtlbjZMVzlQY0hWeFI5bE50VWEzU2x1VjdiV1Vma1JJZ3BQbFNLYmhvcUg2RlhNOXpVN01yemhhSmV2SFJBZkdwZzRFQ2J0RzdzT3l4MDhFQkxfdU5GalJlZnpsdkJJbnlVVWxsdU1jSV8yUjZvZm5qaWhPQzlTaDNfdk54VldaR2NBMVYxMXA3dnlraDlXQ2hBMjRhdXFJRkR3MUVUZHNzdUQ0M0Z3dz09
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ANSI SQL is not Turing complete (at least 92 and 96 arn't). One of the goals of a later revision was to make it Turing complete - but I'm not sure how that turned out in paractice.
Speaking of 'in practice', most implmentations cover a superset of a subset of ANSI SQL (i.e. not all of ANSI, plus some proprietary stuff). These are sometimes Turing complete (think stored procedures for one); which makes them suitable for general computation tasks. Plus, I'm pretty sure that most problems can be implmented in SQL (that's most as in rate of encourntred, not times studied).
So, SQL _is_ a programming language, and can be used as one. It's also one of the few declarative languages in common useage too.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFWXFIbmlkN3VxWlNDeUlYZ29xREdwaUM4Znp6ajRTeWRyYmw3dkdxYlg2ZXNoRkJaSG1WNFpRME5LYm5SekxORmhSMDREMWhjWHZ5aTlOSld0aVd4dFE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFSVdlT0FXWG5UMzZWN2tRZ1RNNFloQzFTMWRJdmdxRzVoYW1DQjI1dlBBNnhRZGk2UDNycDlNR3paT1phZHhqU0hkdjhvejBlQ3QyRS1SR2VqUEJQWl8zOEpuRG8ycGpHVU9jZDBhSEFVUE1FcS1mX25NN3Y2dlBXUnNNMUYwQlZZdkNlM2dkYnNrLWttbE10Z2xEQVJwR2NudnpnUmlWWVE0WnFZSEpVeUxjNVF3TFpUS3lJME1hbW9wQ3RlV2pxYUNQbWpXM2xieHh5QS1EVThJWTdodz09
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Pithy, but not correct. The 'self' is a design decision following from Python's philosophy of preferring explicit to implicit. Guido likes the no-magic approach. You declare self like any other parameter, and you assign attributes to it like any other object. I'm not crazy about it myself, but it's not a result of tagged on OO.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFbFV2SENxZmJVdDZvYmtWNm43Y21DZllTSGg3dWtyTTVXTTd6YjhjcGZYQVJqQkh4ZC1VUDRNNzhObkZvSklEX1BmblhqMWFFUnJDZVhwY1FyZ3RaaEE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFcDFrT1p5bl9uNWRFNmg5bHp0SkptX0ttSjZPZ1JLWW1zQ3dRWk1ud2huM0UyRVNBWTUtVEl2VzZPSGttOWczVm5jNHkwdUVyNXJJZUYzVFRDTVhFUlN6akRyaU4zUjdveFZLMXhvY2hfR2Rrb0I4UWZPbEt6SDZtUVo3cTRmN19DY2dUbnhqSzRPRjFvMC1hekkzeEp3Zk96ZzItMHJGcHY0MHJRUVQyanBlblhQQk1EcDZJb3kzYjREQ1Y3eGpEYlMwZDRPLXBVdE9ULWxLMVdGNENvdz09
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I agree with you there. It is like VB3 all over again.
And what is with all the underscores?
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFSTdiSEw0WXI5RzJLSC1EWTJnWXJkSmYzdUR6Y3NMMFNMeVM2RUllek90SjNFTWNzSVBCU0RTVlhyRlRoRUlDb1g1YlVCenlGbzRYRS1CdzZadGVWUWc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFeUpRd0FOSVlDdEREa1RSVzN4YW1RWGRYb0ZtVXR3dm9rSGE0aHZjMFVydTlvUFNDWlhYVXZCSlNBdWpuZ0UxQzlHMURHQXM2RUk5NGZpMEg5WmU2VWZZU2RERjN4RmExcGxBTGZUREdjWUJqa2NyOXdGTnBqNWw1ZHpSTnBRdUpWdk1GSDFVTmdGRFktc01mbTRnSm5XaE5OMWpDYy1jUjJkMXdQMFVaOHdtWkN5eGlNbHowR3RJNFlJVDRnam95N3l0dkNZLVJRVjNGVG5BRTViQ0w2Zz09
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Occam
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFV3RyQjNsMGx2NDRDTzFYSWZvdVVTamFmRmNWUFRnT29oNmRfZUlKSlF1eTBUaTdRYWIyS1VMQTByU0QwYmpGaFFVcUtNbTE5MElfajBDdUUtS3BzQUE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFYV9McXdpUC1FUW9vSFJJYWpGYS16aFdHdTdUYVFsM1pkTlQzMFFLeTJlZEpZWmlZXzVWRU1ZNkpPbng1T0hhbkhFWUpobWN4VEpMNk9EZG1VZGtfQmZPWnlVR3BLcXRPbWJDQnJFYUN2c296dWg2NHRNSUVCdUJ6Wjg4bi1JdFFKNl8wc1hYcGhLWHpaOW4xTXZfU3dSX1F4RWNzZTBDOVRVb3NLUTlJc1ZPSjlreXE0Qmx2YkRCcWRVU19hcG9SenNWYzhyVUJ5MTFJUUFRTmhrbVFldz09
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> Okay, so you have to pass in self when you define instance methods. Big deal. You don't have to do it when you actually use the method. It never has been something that gets in the way.
> def meth(self):
> instead of
> def meth():
Wait, so can I do:
def meth(self):
callOtherMethodOnSelf()
callThirdMethodOnSelf()
callWithParameters(aGetter(), anotherGetter())
where all those methods are other methods on the object?
My big beef with explicit self isn't the method declaration, it's the method body. Methods frequently call other methods on the same object; it's a real big pain to type "self.privateComputation(self.getSomething())" if you're calling loads of other private methods.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFdUg3RGQxWTFDUlZvY05QdXdnUHJoWVZkZEtyWVlWRmp4MHVvTEp6Tk8wM0prQU1IYnZaSWdPa25jRHdxODlqdXFVT0loNFh3eHg5TkJPOVFUdllYekE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFOG5ENmRQZE10QUcyUG4yWUZCcE10U2RZQzJrdjJVYzV5Qi1FNC1mNWRkcng2c3dZVzV3SDJiYXhoeGxWQVZYX19RejA1WUI2R1dBbks0LUo2eXpXTE1nNmQxd3FlUmt6cUw2WVktSzRFemEtcTBQdkM0a1Bicy04ZUxsdjdDN2c2NzRlQVZiMHF2QzBWZVZPd2xTN3RJelVHR1BXbnVWMC1lVy1HX3JwQzJiaU1NWHZsZEItU01KTUNHWlJObUhzb2FaYkVwLWRnMThjSFVUQVotMnIxdz09
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Ruby - newlines can substitute for semicolins if the parser is not in an accepting state.
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFQmhJOUNxbzZDM0xBeGFJc183dGtGRFUwcjhIQjhqdnVkUGNvRjBlbUtZbURfTHRMNGZYbWxzei1QTlA5WVdHMDhYZDBHYjdNbHZmUFR0NlR6anZmVEE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMUFKWHZYUGdUTWRCUmhyRHkxeHN1Szdidml0bVo4SElNWjcza1dFc2ZVZzR2SmxkZWtUZmVQaWVudmNCMUZDMzNwbGR6M01ROEc2Z1VZTll3UllSQkpoZEc5QXQtcmFQRXM4LVlFTWNRelpUSDl1SlcyOURHdDI5MnZwaVBIcFRvT1RsZS1nZnF2S21KOEpCbWxmWGZJWXJNYXJSNnlkNkFYbC1kODYyLUcyamJUNGhHR1g3UERUaEhyeTJWUXJySGEyTDdUQ0pLVGZ5VEFUcW5KTmc0UT09
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I found that learning assembly really helped my C (and learning C really helped all my higher-level languages). Once you've had to manage memory layout on your own, without even C's structs and automatic variables, you make "dumb" C mistakes (like returning a pointer to an automatic variable) much less often.
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFanlWUkgwY0o2bkVvS3Y2UmowcVdLYkxRQnRqYjBiNkVoZ2g5dzRtVWlWYmJVN2FUQ2ZyVlRlRXZ3M3Uwa2JXc3ZZLXh2dk5MWER1S2pvSW96MWtqcFE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFZWVEN0VTNWVIS2lxMURrcGpERTJmRy1Zci1GNndrU2t6Y3Q1Q1ItclFWTlh1UVNVT3ByR3h5U29hcEc0OGU0NTh4QkFnNk1TXzZOT1hfNVVnVmxtQzBrdm5OY0hxMFQ5dkpjTlE1OTRhUl82UExQbnZkRDdfOUZqUGRZMG12ek40aXlRemxNaWh1VnZuNENxN2dINmhwU2F2QkFXV2xnSTh2dVFBQzQ2aml0Y25SVmRNeC1hdlhSLVRMX3Roa3NFNm5ZWFpLT29KcjJzNl9haFJLNkNvdz09
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Here's my take:
1. Delegates and anonymous methods can completely change the structure of your code for the better. At the most obvious level, user interface programming becomes vastly cleaner, because you have a much looser coupling between event producers and consumers.
2. Closures are incredibly useful in the right situations.
3. Properties and events work really well as members of a class equal in standing to data members and methods. On the one hand it's syntactic sugar, but on the other, it results in better clarity of design and clarity of code.
4. Autoboxing of value types makes code much clearer, but an even bigger win is user-defined value types. For small objects that you use a lot of, the ability to allocate them on the stack is huge.
Overall, 3 and 4 are useful but incremental improvements. On the other hand, 1 and 2 completely change the capabilities of the language, and allow you to use a lot of patterns that you see in languages like Ruby or Lisp that simply have no direct equivalent in Java.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFUmY4MlN4VlhxcnNXeGVTY3plT1M3anU3aTV6VXhtdE9VU1ppMWVOZWp3WllFSjlwUml5WXNkemlaVGZNX3NYeVBaUEhleThpbmpYRG1WdnZ3cGJZTVE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFY25wZVJma1RGbnA5RHc1ODIwRE9PZnpFRmdjbFRXUjhLVnNDWHczcjVjMWpralZDNHJ6c3puMU0xSmM4TElXMEdWVEVVcXhva3ZUSDU4X2dEMlNVV3JLLTRzSWtmaFRLem5xQmhkVW1CM2MzTnJMWmRCd3NWX0dQdmZoQlBEQ0RjNjVyeXZJaVAyWXdUUDRWckpGUExTZGZDNDBZQ292dkdkem94MEpWdy1LSXpSSW0yMTVoTlhEbkVEai1Td2RUaXJmWmpldjB3STdpa2p4aXAzR0t5UT09
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I don't know much Python, but for a language that aspires to be elegant and easy to read,
arr.__len__()
(and some of the other underscore things I've seen) stick out as a glaring eyesore.
I could be completely wrong here -- maybe with enough flight hours, that becomes elegant, easy-to-read code -- but it makes me question whether the purported elegance of Python code is being oversold.
Edit to fix markdown capture of my underscores.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFYjFQcksxZng3T0ZSRjUwNDM3UnU2bE9JbEh4dkt4Wk9nZEpQQVNkaDlOY2NnNEF0WDRWVzh1bkxzT1h5anBWN3JpcmtFZHFSTzF3QWZGbk5kdTE0amc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFdDBfVFNLbTJJV0MzQVFudWhLQTdzRDFnUjRpWEF1M1pzc19ic1dEVkRHY0ZLSjlRRDZQaXA5ejYtSXFiX1hCU0lsU2VTRjBDbi1LT1FjeE5FQVZkNjBRelJlb3oyMDhkbTFnOEFDUzE2aV9XVVNNMW9nSktMRTJhTERPbHdrSnZaMVNycEdOeVhQdjhmZUZ2TnYydC1uanM2VFhscmQyUENwSEYzY3RwUFZSUnljTi1BbFNKZjdzQzNHRnFpWVBrRmFlZ2ZoQmltaHlRa3RVMXhNeEx5Zz09
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F# now allows whitespace significance (F# is the ocaml-like functional language for .NET that comes from the Microsoft research lab). You can skip the double semicolons now when you turn this feature on.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFdDh3OF85Rk01by1mMjgyUV9faTdPS1JSOURwNEpSMXo3czZMdGRhR1UwdjBXeFpFQ1dKZUVkdnVFSEZ6Z0FyZ0s3SjVUaldZWDRtWXhuYzNHWUx3QXc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFTGFkSnpBTjB4cEhoVzZ3R09WQ1JsRWFTRi04TUNFZWRIRnU1WTRBN21FcDRRcy1MekVTZzBrYmxhY3ctVHUxbUJMc1Uwd0hlYTZIVFh3NDVzMUY0TnRKRVVlMTJWN1Rta1NxbHdrek04T3RHemtwRldkb0Q3aDBwYmtIYUh4SGE2RlVLSFJTNHRJNUhMZ2VDSkNKS0Zsd2hUWV9Nc0JIMzlFQWtwMzRQNkxxLU52RWpqLW0yRE1zbzBVWE5PejdBVzNfTGttRFVnQW9OaVRVWVBMZWYwQT09
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A little full of ourselves, are we?
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFWW5DVG5vMjl5Rkl2aDB3YmdMblFqZXlrWW1ldXJBeTZISGYwMVhYMVRfLWxZMGtaYUxxRWpTb1NMRHM1MWtqekpqSE9fcGlQWEJzaWJ3UjlYall5VXc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFT1NrRjl3cHloS2FtUzhKT2dVT001cC1CV0pCd0RmNDZleFgwUTdObGl1R2hYMDd2d1YtUUxwMjk5Y3dCSXFFbmtFaFRmUVRtNGFVZm1ERnhCZTFPZ0NpT0lZOXBzNTBzNHpCaDYyRkt2d054MEJneVVGa2RUbC1xNWEyN2hHdncxdl9XUEVJNG1kcVlfN2pib0Y3TEt3blV5OGE4QjhoaU94MmEtOWQ4VWl5TkEyT281aU0tUFdvVXJjZnBuWEJMZnpOZTlrTkFOVkJHOFNmTXE0QmI1Zz09
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Underscores, like explicit self, are not things that you use most of the time in your code.
Double underscores make it clear that the method you are defining is 'special' to Python. For example, if you wanted to add the comparison method/operator (==) to a class, you'd add the following method:
__eq__
Now again, this only is used for certain methods, so it isn't used all that much, but what is nice about it is it makes clear that the method is some of syntatic sugar or something that in most languages you'd originally think of as an operator.
You would never EVER use arr.______len______() in code, you'd use len(arr). The underscore version is purely for method definition, not calling the method. Maybe it isn't as 'pure' as everything being in the object.method() form like ruby, but it often just makes things clearer and even more concise.
That's one thing I like about Python, is after a short time it becomes very obvious exactly what something does.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFLVAzUXBPTG5DdXp5Zlc4eW1qTXFlaklIdDlXSnBQV0xnOGpyb1lKTlFpTVJXM2ZTWHd6cVIzcjRjeHZzbVlGcGZ3OTVqLVJtaFpfMUNnTGFXNV9wRHc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFcnpBNEZ4SU9vdGRWekRzRVNqNHYxVURzZnA1RGJhRk1saU44VGU5cEl2ZVF1dWpvUWhXTFdoemhKcTMzM1lvMzZDU0lMMTQ2N1NVWTlfMjFjZmY2NFV2WHRra0h2TjRicW4tTmROSU80OC1IVjFnVFRtY1JIMmx6ZHlxRFJPRkhod0Z2R096a1VYQjhYaXIzcjdUTHRQc1piOWRUUHNCLUJVN3N2SmRqajdobDF3VEVpekZ1QkgwTFFzUUFDRFFZSDV2WnlfeUNrT1E2T1lfcnBXd09xdz09
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Maybe they fixed this in 2.4, but I sure remember Python primitives. Sucks when you can't add behavior to the Integer class. Hello, Ruby.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFcUdZUVI2WW1SNUFyZWlRVjBNV2F2WGZFQ2R1TTJnejVhZjZ1ZkJSSExtdkZFWTVjdGZidTJ5eFNMTEdGQm5fU1lVc0hkY05TcF9xMy1jNGdpUmhzM0E9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMG1qWUo4TkNGUHhtYVFoQlJtQ1BXUzRaVVJvc1FXWDdseDkwb09xanN2bGFNb3l6UTNrU0xJM3N4bG1oMlNxUFZDakRQNXluX21HamxjNUYxSVNrUUZkQ1BUNVFwWFJVekFCT253SzJUQktpZTEzMmlvOWtfcUM4M3czWHdTVVVZN0dGNWJfUFF2clJnR0VkQTY2ZW1RZTY0LThMVzIwMzlXbVhROEh6NzNiNmZVSTNsa3RjWlQya3d2ckpYR3ZQQnhaS05VTUc5SWFyWGN3NkI4VWJTQT09
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English is easy... I think that his spin ay Perl’s “philosophy” is very close.
As for Python — I’d say that since all other “philosophies” had five or fewer words, while Python had almost twice as many (nine), it is not as concise as it wants to be...
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFN2pOaXc4YzBLekw5cGVTYi04bmhRWlVNeDRqZzRwX2l6c0ZiMzVZSnlZOHoyY1RSbDk4dklpc0ZqamN2RlpJLVhvRkhSZXA4TzhQbGF2cDhIMGxpaGc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFR2lVYWoxNVlZUG90ZVF2VlFoOUNCU0xVUkYxUkhMc1BkUFFjSUcxQWJOUFNzV1RqOGJuUDlLNW82Rk5yVjEwUXRTSTRzZ3lidkFjVmtZYy1zWkJ3a1Y0RGFVX3Uyc3VnbjRLV3d1b2VSWC16NTZqa2hhTHRBWW5qLVdoa3ZMU2JSNE1kR3FVYko1MHlSREZ0N251R2dJbkx6S3VkRlk3dFlhMEI3QmNGWUQ3MWJXdk9xTzNTVHp2YUlPV2k3Q0YxcjhsZlkySFFIZ1E1d0Zwc2NqOW1wdz09
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Javascript isn't the only language for dynamic web content. Java Applets are still a possibility even though they aren't used much anymore. Also, Adobe Flex 2 (free SDK available) allows you to make dynamic web apps that run on top of the Flash player. You code in a combination of an xml language called mxml for specifying layout and ActionScript (which is admitedly very similar to JavaScript). More options are opening up in this realm. Openlaszlo is a project very similar to Flex that uses xml and javascript and compiles to DHTML or Flash. HaXe is a language that compiles down to a swf file that runs off of Flash also. Flash is now a full development environment for web apps. If you want to do AJAX-like coding without a lot of complexity, give one of the Flash options a try.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFa2dyZEVNM3F2SV9wQjl0aTBPalowdzlIX0Y3SkU4WndINEg0T3luS25jZnZVdVk1T252QzVKUkJ1eElnZkN6d1BOb1FOaWtYMXhVclVLWG5QM0RaR3c9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFS2VoeWdycVRET2FFTHpMY0FCdTRpT2xCN3kwZ0ZsQlFpRWJ3N3g2M3pBOFpPSnpfVjlGU1I3enNNQjh3clpBUkZZNXdfUHlUNjRHN1NyUmo3N1AtNTBZcjBWSnhKY2xNNlcxQUU3STZLb3Y4ZnlpY0xFM2VZM0VSY1czRUlMUlZfbEFaQUQwaGlqb245d19yMmFKaUI3X0RXQTRnLUk1T0VkcnBGdTBjSFdHbVBUZEhOWTBIYlo4djJoX0JrQkhxM1Zxdk9QbmVUUzd2Z0lZdUZ2RXRwZz09
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You can always subclass it and add behavior to that. Being able to directly maniupulate something like Int or String is a win-win. Sure, its powerful, but when you start using library that change the basic behavior of a language, it can cause some serious problems.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFZk14THk0elM3RUhleDNjcEx3N3pveTZpQjZlSk5IaGhLeVd2RHNYSE5GQ1hZLVVyQ3ViZ3RwY1lfOHRGcDh5V0wzZHFhWjVMME9XQXc2eGJJc1pkTFE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFUXVQbHE3c2REd0QxZFFTQUs0S2h5d0pHcVV4OG0tSFRyVlFRa3N6R0hLUHJmUTh0a2RnbTY3Rmpab09kTnNrRjVCalZIZmpWNklzY25YaFdWZm1adWt4ZmNsaUpiQjZIWF93ajljd3pPc1hNQzBoOXpkY1phNGEyR2drZ2wzc1RzRXdnUTkyYm1DUTVGNmhvSkxMRG1feENYbWlQUzVhazc3VlExbVJicGJwbFNzd2hzOEFEZC1TbzIyS1dwbWtsTDFObGE4WE5lclIwcVR2LXBDS2o3dz09
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFQW4tT1JrZ2V6NUVMajdXRnAwTDlfUkIzQ3VsNUhCNWtUVG9iZm9NQWd3QW5iMGdTU0FvdDlSY2UxbWtWbloyeEt4LUNSbS1qU1B6cndjSjBlOHAyVlE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFZlZpaWFMay0yNm5MZ1gxWEtoUXlYYkl1TGJTOUpNNDA3VDZ3M3FIUXRRUDE2VVFHS2FGSHNyWTFsU0R4S2RPV0d6SHAwZ2JZN2VFNmhSQk53TF91OXh2aF9DRXZteGlrcmVPOUxtSm1fR1VyNDh3dlNZZkRhMVp2c1VGV3ZzbDRGT2lMb19fcXliT05LRG1aZTlTUm9QUmZmVzdQdzczY1Zteko2QTdISGw1NUFaa1ZsZ0NYbXZ3Q3UwNkFWNDRjeDZGVFJ0MV9STlJlNE9lZUo2alJuZz09
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> My big beef with explicit self isn't the method declaration, it's the method body. Methods frequently call other methods on the same object; it's a real big pain to type "self.privateComputation(self.getSomething())" if you're calling loads of other private methods.
It is another one of those tradeoffs. In Ruby fairly often you have to specify self also, to make clear that you are working on the class attribute itself and not a local variable.
It is just another example of Python's 'explict over implicit'. Sometimes it can lead to slightly more verbose code, but it at the very least makes your code very clear; there is no ambiguity about it.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFLVNsY1R3STE5cFRJVFM5MnIwRUktX3REVnJIWUR0UzNoS2xZZjhuR3N1S3VCNnhPaTJSVUpLMk1XaWgwYlprTmRGQ3dtYzQ0WktHYVF0MzBwNG12UkE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFWXE2YVBudk4tT25WTFdVNnBGZXBlQVNCLU02X21ZTlV6cjhVSUE5Wm9CNjRjNzJnckpMMGNyNHpicjdoTkNHSnlWX3RQdVhQN3JTc2d5WVFYRWxzNm1PNjNIV09SUDlzMTNwVXVsb2N6Uzh1cjF6cWs0bWNJUFAzbU5YaW9UT1RQY3FDVG44REpJN0QxalFmVUUwc0htVGhJRUlRQTJBYzB4T2ttdk5CYy1oNFNhVmRqLUR2TldLVkNzLXdIZVZjVGx4dVZaY3FQZlFack5kQnZEQ1J4QT09
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Heh, yeah, but that is really discouraged and it goes against the conventions of just about every Python library out there.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFXzM4N3FtUWdZTkMxeFRVWkNublBMVldyb0s3OXkzeGt4UjczQUpueVB1ZjFmOUFOU1p2aDl3akxDN0dvMzRlSGRaMEY5YXpjczhqQVZNVWNjdVVHWGc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFRkVTVE1zNEwyTDZmd0l4cjFlUjNHSzZMTmt0N2lVNGptSGNxVUZWMEJfU19LS0NxellBbHR6TEk1cFRrRWVRMTFBbXhqRm02Nkh4VTRVQ2syUDMzNzZ5M0otRl9uclJYWUFxVXlzQUVob1B3X1E1NFFOdHRfd2lIRk1YT25yQ2tCRHlPUlkwRjBDOFdPSWx0UVNmRVdIa3I0bmJuWDk5VmR6VTQxYTBjWktrYlltYW1RQWd0YkJ2bTlUTXB6WEgxVU02MjRKbjR0clVoYTQ4ZE11bVNydz09
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFdm5YU293R2hUMFRYNzktUFFDb1BzUVRscXBpTFJraHBfSlhTaFp4VENqaldqNVpEcUYyQUdqM3RsS25tZER0V055ckxqUFNnSlM3aktjbWRpZFZROVE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFcXhVMnhZdHBGcTlabGtzUDNiRTFZTVh1N012LUpDU2tNM2dkYUJqakhoZkEzQVlVSElYZVNjYW9vTjJfMTdudHJUdTEydnJOSmhxNFlVdm5oTVRQdElfR24wcU9BLVVscnV1UzlYbjNYWng4UUhMOUtfUlRpOVZ0bDRiSmRtM0gxRzRZQkl1WWZweF9iNTNDNk5fSFI5VHFFNkIyUjVleWNaYTB4TXRHLUpxV29pX29WZHlMTUJPRFRqYlNyWThQM2tBUWxYMUVmOEFHNThBSTQwRlY3dz09
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first, perl is relevant. CPAN has no equal. perl5-porters email list is active with real coders hardening the platform and making it perform better. maturity is not to be taken lightly in tools - we will make enough mistakes of our own without having to debug our tools. as for languages you should learn -
1. haskell - will stretch your mind but i wouldn't try to use it as a day-to-day language
2. ocaml - may very well be something you can really use in place of java or c++ in some cases.
3. lua - small is good! no one uses these esoteric features we all debate anyway. lua supports 95% of the language features i really need.
4. lisp - although in this era of dynamic languages, i don't think it is as mind-stretching as it once was.
5. c - you must know c. c will outlive you. c will outlive your children. the most important code in the world is c code.
6. some assembly - you should have some idea what is happening down there.
7. javascript - don't get hung up on closures etc, this is just mental masturbation. you can adequately provide dynamic functionality by knowing just the basics.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFTDAzeU4zZ0dobG8xX3JPOTFTaDM1aVFQNU03M1B2WG5QQ3IzaVJscjJoMEt0WWo1b3RtOC1qbGJzeFdCa1VUSnVrejh0YWpEbXRJME9RVDBhNXNoTVE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFWFUyNEliWDlxXzNRRFpKaDh2SmE5dTg4akZfLTVLR2dJOTM4TThlc3AySWNXQ09WY1VySk83TkJTUDN3azREUGJxb0ZkODczeWxaUlVPZTFaM1pmbGUtZl9KTjg0WXJmM01MUHBPcXMzZWhrMnBuamJTY2RHWWNzX1R0X2lBTzIyUG12dzF5UEFZTlhUOUl1TkVqbThBbEl4aXJrcnBaTHJJQk1Eb0d1SGc4WXpTRWNsX19UTEh3Z1JqTExpOVNrUWQtMzhvaDdCZ0hKaTllX2N5azZYZz09
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Ruby has first class function. You are just ignorant.
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFNlprS0RCUEllVWMtTmJES2dSRGRfWDNVMmRLbFBDQ2xzWXlTc3dsVEhwMnVoQmMwSXExRjFheGxheFN2V3JkTWIzaUVIcE9lQ01ta1owVmxpWm81TWc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFU09GdERsUnh0c0wyMloyQjl6STBaWEllMlFvbEJqQk9PSHVwM0c2ZXRTX3BmX2FydzJxNUJ3M0VYal9pUWhKQzlfdTZwUjk1bEZZNV9GamFnUDV5SElfb0I0WFVnajVwUHg5SkllQmFsclhDbXktUkRwUHlaVG9IV2JhdmQxY19Ldm82UVNhN2E2dnJfWjRVRGdDV2M2N2szbjFYS1Y3ajBBOUl3MmU5dW1ScVhiWEhTWG9IdFlhbEVrZjlsVmhHRkhlM1JGblF3OGlVWjkwNVhVX3VpUT09
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++1
first relevant comment yet, really
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFREhFSTRhdkZHX3hrekI4UFFVWmJwNmpINjhpMGtVT2FPS2hzakVVdlVHTjBfZGpIRXpRVHA5elptdTB4YTU0aGgxUnpxWEpyMF9NOWJnWG42ckJySlE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFck1PUnVOWUxrbnVVcm5nZkc0SmV5QnBYYzExQjZhZHU5ZkR0Sm5RX1lRSjdJMTN5UDlGYi1jcUtkY05VenZfNS1JSlhjekZ0MjhWYWphR0JFQnFGbFNOcEpxMEVIQzlsWmJhclVnQ05LTTNnNmtONFpiTV90Q3pTaGFTODN2N0hhSy0wUC15bUVqc3AtVTVzbHRGTE8yREZ2YjBRQm5fOFVjaV8wRFIwUEN4MjVOVTFWakgzSndCOEp1SHZ6dXNMRWp5cEVfN1FFTHVRdmRJb0lrSEtldz09
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pls strike scheme off the list, it doesn't belong there.
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFSmhNVjdBY3dORDdtT3hpQ05VWkRrbWZBMjlQZjdDdUEwX05CbkRRb2k4U0ZWeXBQM2hrUy1faWIxOXlDMl92Vzd0YjdITmJSUkRidDFMYmx0dlJTSHc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFQ0h3V3Q1bXg2QVhwa2htUmJuZ3JfVFVaMlBkYlNwNnh2d1E1bmVMVzVvSXQwM01mQzlpdGRpbEpCRUpqY1JuN19ZTW1sbUQzeGZLR0pTTU9iWW1UZWlNREstNnhjOEt5bS1RY3A2cEpwV2NUcjFNZ0V0bFVmQVhOcHZPRUhfem5YOVktVDB0LWxNbjhfUlFqaE0tU215YU5OalpwUlltMWJWM21KTGl5NS1TZDNzcnZxclJwQlVJUUVJblRyeWdoV1ZOQ1lrRE1lMExPR0JwQzc1RkMwUT09
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[deleted]
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMVZNaF9fT0hidmJYRkVIeF9fWldvRlV0eExNbHdsVkVkcVdPTEQxUV9lOG1LMjF5b1VNSEJZQzVBMXFfUkJ3WWdhN2F2Mk95T19VOWlsVHZJNUhpY0E9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFZEs1MmZwaUJKbm9PYktmNm1BVkhCQWpLTkMxcVFYTUpZQWhodi02VW9jQ3dETXlEZ09QUnN3UjVpOFctX2Zqa2VYaVB0RWhsOGFFci1Eb3U2NEtmQmtOcmtMZmhnbGpJMmxCYm1BUkpjMG1VZXF2MGFrU1ZaeEdoUHJCZWN0NDVGX0hUMy0xV2ppWHpLY1hfX0ZFRFpFa2xDbkxJMlctZlBYS19xNDdlXzhHX0FGaUVxcUdiS1c3OUMyMWttTmxZaGoyRmE5cVZUWkdGT0dSdmI3bl9oQT09
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I think len(arr) stands out because it is, arguably, the most commonly used special method that is obviously a function. Using + or ==, since they are so familiar, don't carry the same 'right, now I'm calling this function on x' mental overhead.
As counterpoint, where object.method() seems a bit forced, I would nominate "".join(["Some", "words", "together"]). Despite being the most efficient way of concatenating strings, I can't help but worry about someone else maintaining my code and wondering what the hell I was smoking, and usually tend to fall back on the more familiar (pythonic?) methods of doing so. The exception to this being, obviously, tabular information like a csv file, where ",".join() is the dog's round things.
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
|
Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFX0pidzdoZEVidkd4UTFLbGZXUXBWZmZ2dWJjWDVnLUxRM24yN1k1RjN3LUVJMlFxQlo3LVEwdXhkMkhQRUZYYy1oV25uZEQzT0hIbTV3cmdHVEVNOUE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFeXlMNHI4ZjNXR3F4cHVhQmE0Qk94MlQtNkpTYXFBNDIzbEphYkk2RG1tS2RRSHJGLTRrQlV5RjRkTUg1N1ZCM1ozUy1ydHNkbk9ISE9sdVdBNEoxMUdCaXdqYk9vVEJwSHI0VEplWmJXalFwbmFuVHJtanZJUG9tWVNfQm9YNUlyaV9KLUQ4UDNQNzNtRTVIV1VjaVFVTnRyZUZMRm5jQ3d0NHp6RTdVMVJKRE9waFllOEROUFl0MFExMjhObkxFN0JxNWtoWWxxR1NtbXhOVGIwRUFidz09
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Read [this](http://lucumr.pocoo.org/entry/rrrrruby/) and you might just get a clue.
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFalRmX0VhMzJ3QVhRWHhiTHhNbDA4TmdXZ3RJR0VqUnlpeGliV2xycXc0QjJWUUJtc2RwdXcxSzhEdVJHNXJFZ1NGcmlKSmp4RlVNanprY3JUVS1yWGc9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFRURLc1pkRjhQYnpfTlBWbXpmNVBGdTBfV2t2U3JPZERYUi1jWGs0T2NDZU1jcVZGbjFZNklYakFXYzFQVUVIUWtFQTNKbURYLUZ5T2tzdmlzVno3ZHdpelJnN05waTF2amtvZEE5MVhfOU1ubklmT0cyOFU0bDRhV3g2N0JBcUFYeWU2Wm1NcC14N005TU9jQzRCc25TM1N2dlQ2Tnp1eGEtTkFibU5JVmlHenlHRnFCbUd5T1lxUmkwNmRZbzMtMVNRX0d0am9YcVRoMDhIVncyeGIyQT09
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None of that indicate that Ruby function is not first class.
It's like he is saying "blah blah blah blah and that is because Ruby lacks first class function.".
Keep saying that doesn't make it true.
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMmduRFMwb0l3R1ZrTU5tSE85R3ZvZzA5RnhGT3UyQlJJRDMtN0VNX1F6Z1N2dTBtVWRLb0JzZERIak5JWnJFM0kwOTZxREhTa3RXOTRkZHQwNjhoV0E9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFTi1rejBuOERlUGpHZ0F6LW5laVN6N2Uxc1FzREhJMTkwVzFOZU5mX0wtaEFKMUVOaE1DOWhyUURmc1had3R3OGhzaXUzUkVtWTZZTGNiWnE1T0s5UzI0enZYWVAyaFNvSmljMzhhZ09DZ192OUp4WnY2bllhTDBiYVQ5RzFmTlpraU0yLVpMa3VMd2NKX3dxNERBQ2F0RVBURi1ibWJUNDA0el9TUU9yOWoxaHRSNmhjS2xKRnRlQ1FteGpZZVAxWFVMYTlnRkVKRjE4V29lZjRveTBNZz09
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Nobody uses [good] optimizing C compilers.
GCC and Visual C seem to have the market covered between them, and IBM has a *Java* runtime that's faster than the code those two produce. I've heard Intel's C compiler optimizes better than an assembly programmer (on Intel chips), but I've not personally met anyone using it.
I once looked through the asm produced by an 'optimizing compiler' (not C tho) and it was appalling.
I think just being compiled makes them fast enough, extra assembly level optimization is perhaps low on the list of work priorities.
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFeGZtMHNyY3ZYMWJ1NXFNMUxwN3B0ZzRYUEtZeDNrUFE0WmdhUTh6N0tOdXFadEstRzNuNUJnQXhRaVhPRHJRVW1yVmI3MW5NcjJYX3dwUkNfbENsWnNsWnZkOTBRRWdmRjU5aXJJeDhRdzQ9
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFMnRLZThQcHJ5S3Z5RjNXN0lSLWJuZ3RYNmJXQ2E0X1ZZczFZeUhVT1B6RTJXd21wZXFwUWpJNkZKZTdOX1hoSEI2ZTRoOVdBaTJuZElTaG1ralp1aTRFRlpYOWs0U2pyUGx6ejRpQ2hBTmNoRS1hSnZYY2ZfUmdneXhFYngxWU1ZNGJxWjJVY1dlbE5qLWZwalItSVA2ci1oal9nU1VzRExtbjJoWEVPbnk5czVFYUgxdWYwM0JmN2MwczJycnN1OUtDOTBxbmp4MkFyVmpNUGI5dnpFUT09
|
I see. So, maybe the next step for the language is to preface every function call with a new keyword called *function_call*.
It would make things more explicit, and let's face it, it looks like magic now. Who's going to *get* that a word followed by some arguments in parens is actually going to *call* a function?
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFOGN3a0dZbWhWWEE3UEh4djV2dFlWeXRvbWZQODlIM2Y4eHlsbjNUbVlneXBkcTQwbjlXQ2hsQVk5M3I0S3hPcUlHT28tYTZGWEY4UFgtSU9ndDNMQVE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFOHNEYVJZU191NkhiWlhlUDJfSjR6QlBLTGNiWEJBNTRKVVl0NXF0dzM5QXhfYVhvXzlxTFJZTlJRQUg3MDdHRGYzWWNnby1BSlVMRjlhV1NKOVdYVHRuYVJhUjNjUFRiQVdTZGNFNmM0RFlmYXZDbXJFSFJhZzc2WWlmSTZSQmhOWE5ZSFE4SlVfWmY4SG5XbFoxY09FSDJDeFhQbU1nTVVJREJMb0ExTjNHMktfRGhzMjRudHAwMlFYekRydzdrN1lRVkxZdjNodUdaWGVuNkdvcGpodz09
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There is no alternative to some kind of disambiguation here for any language without declarations (and even those with if there are shadowed names). Consider the code:
class Foo:
def bar(self):
blah = 4
What does the last line set? A local variable, an instance variable or a class variable - there must be some way to distinguish between them. Ruby does the exactly the same thing with @, for exactly the same reason. The difference with methods and variables is that ruby uses only the method namespace for calls ( One of the things I really dislike about ruby, as it makes functional programming much more clunky)
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
|
Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFbTJRV2lyNVptNkR4RFo2NHluZkIzOVZ6YXhlSlprWVgyQUZXTW9YTEJ0TldMT2hERG9na2VlZG1rSXppUnJQQ2RYT0hUTjFTTnlaMURXNE04WkpUMFE9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFLW9tM280MFJVT2o1RGhYTEtZY09nMDNkTk5BSEJKOHBuampsN0NUOTlnY0hsNnBtU3YxcmEtb3VnRFFGaVp5TERNcE9FYnFMdGwyWmNMYmFlMFJhbk5kVFFwTWhBQzJIeVd5MS1WaTBQdmdLaWk3Uk1MZllXaEthU0dsVThSQzRwMVdTQS1tVS1hVkJPT1k4WFBuVkx0ajVHTzdnSVROUENzeHZ0S29SNldVdWt3bTA4d3gtbEc5dlo1NHVOaXBtLVdxN0pMelZSODZUejRpaWJYdFk0UT09
|
Open classes are one thing I think Ruby does fundamentally wrong. It breaks modularity worse than even global variables when importing a module can fundamentally change the way basic types work. This is something that should be avoided like the plague in any large project, not trumpetted as a feature.
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r/programming
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comment
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r/programming
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2006-09-17
|
Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFalIzblhnMEsyUFdmU3A5cGZLd3I5UnFUQnAtSU8xdXVVV2FnNnBoa0VmdmpDWElGc18zTy1xNEJ6T3FhOGtqeG51eXJoX2RoNk5sY1ZPdEFaMTBnN0E9PQ==
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Z0FBQUFBQm9jQUNFb0plYkNGQ1BRX0NLZ0J0UlBNSksxUmlOU0dQRkw5NGJRYURvVFRHVFgyektDZzVYOWxPekFNcU5xTUprcVpDQlZ6UFBZa01WMGpuY3ZLQmQyQk5qeklBbHVmZHJ3XzRzYm9TZGNwS29HT1M5QkN6d2RxZEZHT1Zxekxncm1sTXl3LV9xZjRhb2E3QXV1LU5fOE1UOC11cmpjQWpaUkZvcnJ5RlpkcXRGVDZlUmJTQTU2WnZMM3hZcllPZm5URFhFWjkyMTVKTzV3cmxVaF9aemNjeWlDZz09
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