diff --git "a/subtitle/54H8ppxnp8I.srt" "b/subtitle/54H8ppxnp8I.srt" new file mode 100644--- /dev/null +++ "b/subtitle/54H8ppxnp8I.srt" @@ -0,0 +1,3496 @@ +1 +00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:06,520 +something strange is going on with + +2 +00:00:03,799 --> 00:00:08,360 +boys in many countries around the world + +3 +00:00:06,520 --> 00:00:11,240 +young men are more likely to be less + +4 +00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:13,360 +educated than women to die from overdose + +5 +00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:16,600 +drinking or + +6 +00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:18,880 +suicide and even to vote + +7 +00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:21,039 +differently a recent Financial Times + +8 +00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,720 +report found that while young women are + +9 +00:00:21,039 --> 00:00:24,240 +on average more Progressive than their + +10 +00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,240 +parents as you'd expect from Young + +11 +00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:28,640 +Generations boys are becoming more + +12 +00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:30,359 +conservative now it's very difficult to + +13 +00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,598 +Define what it means to be conserv in + +14 +00:00:30,359 --> 00:00:34,239 +one country let alone around the world + +15 +00:00:32,598 --> 00:00:36,480 +but some experts think that one issue in + +16 +00:00:34,239 --> 00:00:38,680 +particular could be driving this + +17 +00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:41,960 +divide gender + +18 +00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:44,480 +equality so why is this happening women + +19 +00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:46,559 +are hardwired to get their needs met + +20 +00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:48,520 +through a man women in America and + +21 +00:00:46,559 --> 00:00:50,879 +London how combative they are and how + +22 +00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:54,280 +hard it is for them to submit so I think + +23 +00:00:50,879 --> 00:00:56,640 +my sister is my her husband's property + +24 +00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,160 +yes many agree that misogynist + +25 +00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,480 +influencers like these are radicalizing + +26 +00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,640 +young men Andrew Tate is definitely in + +27 +00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,720 +the conversation for the most dangerous + +28 +00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,320 +person alive but I spoke to some experts + +29 +00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,720 +who think there's a lot more going on + +30 +00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:12,600 +the men who are struggling who can't get + +31 +00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,680 +status who then feel insulted when this + +32 +00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,439 +lower status group women is being + +33 +00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,000 +assertive and while they don't always + +34 +00:01:16,439 --> 00:01:20,039 +agree what they have to say might + +35 +00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,520 +surprise you men aren't wrong to feel + +36 +00:01:20,039 --> 00:01:24,010 +like their issues aren't getting much + +37 +00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:27,219 +attention right they're not getting much + +38 +00:01:24,010 --> 00:01:27,219 +[Music] + +39 +00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,759 +attention + +40 +00:01:31,119 --> 00:01:35,520 +I reached out to high think might just + +41 +00:01:32,759 --> 00:01:37,439 +be the best experts on this topic + +42 +00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,759 +Richard Reeves the president of the + +43 +00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:42,158 +first and maybe only think tank in the + +44 +00:01:39,759 --> 00:01:44,960 +world focused on the problems of boys + +45 +00:01:42,158 --> 00:01:46,600 +and men Alis Evans talking with me from + +46 +00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:48,560 +seul as she's travel in the world + +47 +00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,560 +precisely to write a book on this topic + +48 +00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,680 +titled the great gender Divergence and + +49 +00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,600 +Neil shimsky a professor who interacts + +50 +00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,360 +daily with a young generation and is + +51 +00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:01,840 +famous on Tik Tok for his videos on + +52 +00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,840 +these issues so let's Jump Right In + +53 +00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,759 +lately we have seen a lot of studies + +54 +00:02:07,039 --> 00:02:10,959 +showing a growing gender divide some + +55 +00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:13,440 +have even said that gen Z two + +56 +00:02:10,959 --> 00:02:16,640 +generations not one because on some + +57 +00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:19,720 +topics like gender boys and girls have + +58 +00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:22,879 +very different opinions so what's going + +59 +00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:26,200 +on so if we look at South Korea China + +60 +00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:30,200 +the US and also across Europe we see + +61 +00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:32,040 +that women young women tend to Express + +62 +00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,959 +more Progressive views concern for + +63 +00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:39,280 +gender bias and also racial bias whereas + +64 +00:02:34,959 --> 00:02:42,079 +young men uh not all but some may + +65 +00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,920 +Express concerns that gains for women's + +66 +00:02:42,079 --> 00:02:45,959 +rights come at Men's expense there's + +67 +00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:48,079 +this idea that women's rights might be a + +68 +00:02:45,959 --> 00:02:50,400 +threat and also in some parts of Europe + +69 +00:02:48,079 --> 00:02:52,680 +the idea of being concerned about + +70 +00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,840 +migration or foreigners so are young men + +71 +00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,560 +just becoming more conservative well it + +72 +00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,599 +comes back to what we mean by these + +73 +00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,680 +terms because there are other surveys + +74 +00:02:58,599 --> 00:03:03,799 +which show that young men are just as + +75 +00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,720 +likely to support gender equality as + +76 +00:03:03,799 --> 00:03:07,040 +older men right so they're in favor of + +77 +00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,120 +gender equality but they're turning + +78 +00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,840 +against feminism and so what that means + +79 +00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,599 +is in their minds at least those two + +80 +00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,000 +things are no longer the same they're + +81 +00:03:12,599 --> 00:03:16,760 +not synonymous Neil and this is one of + +82 +00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,000 +the main reasons I want to talk to you + +83 +00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,599 +that is you actually teach these young + +84 +00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:25,239 +generations and talk with them every day + +85 +00:03:21,599 --> 00:03:28,360 +so do you also see this divide in your + +86 +00:03:25,239 --> 00:03:31,840 +day-to-day job yes there there's + +87 +00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:34,239 +absolutely a gender divide I see it in + +88 +00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,159 +the students that I teach I also see it + +89 +00:03:34,239 --> 00:03:39,120 +I should mention I have a 15-year-old + +90 +00:03:36,159 --> 00:03:43,400 +daughter I attended her middle school so + +91 +00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:46,439 +her eighth grade graduation when she was + +92 +00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:50,640 +14 and uh each of the students was asked + +93 +00:03:46,439 --> 00:03:53,319 +to include an inspirational quote in a + +94 +00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:56,200 +video that played before the ceremony + +95 +00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:58,599 +and the most popular figure to quote was + +96 +00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,599 +Andrew + +97 +00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,680 +Tate + +98 +00:04:03,879 --> 00:04:08,200 +people have come up with various + +99 +00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:11,280 +theories to explain this divide like on + +100 +00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,480 +radicalization or backlash against + +101 +00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,320 +women's rights and we'll get to all of + +102 +00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:18,519 +these but first I want to highlight + +103 +00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,680 +something sometimes missing in the + +104 +00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:23,840 +general conversation and that's that + +105 +00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:26,080 +young men really have some issues and + +106 +00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:27,840 +you wrote a whole book about it so I + +107 +00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,160 +want to know your response to what I + +108 +00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:35,240 +think is the most common reaction you + +109 +00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:37,680 +might get men's issues really yes well + +110 +00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,159 +really is a quite a that's quite a + +111 +00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,800 +polite one one the one interview I did + +112 +00:04:40,159 --> 00:04:44,400 +the first question was when did you + +113 +00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:47,080 +first start hating women H and so there + +114 +00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,680 +is that kind of just that sense the fact + +115 +00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,560 +that you're focusing on boys and men + +116 +00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,680 +means that you're somehow against women + +117 +00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,400 +and girls right that's the that's the + +118 +00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,120 +Zero Sum framing that is such a problem + +119 +00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,880 +I think in this this whole debate which + +120 +00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,639 +is the presumption you can only do one + +121 +00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,680 +thing at a time right we we can't think + +122 +00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:04,280 +two thoughts at once and there's still a + +123 +00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,080 +huge amount we need to do on behalf of + +124 +00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:08,039 +women and girls especially in senior + +125 +00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,600 +positions like in politics and + +126 +00:05:08,039 --> 00:05:12,520 +boardrooms and Technology and + +127 +00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,600 +Engineering and so on there's still a + +128 +00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,440 +lot to do it's not as if somehow all the + +129 +00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,560 +problems of women have been solved and + +130 +00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,319 +we we ignore them and now turn our + +131 +00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,240 +attention back to men it is that we need + +132 +00:05:20,319 --> 00:05:23,800 +to do both and the last thing I'll say + +133 +00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,560 +is that we shouldn't in the end probably + +134 +00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,880 +separate out those problems because men + +135 +00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,919 +and women to some extent do rise or fall + +136 +00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:34,360 +together in families and in communities + +137 +00:05:30,919 --> 00:05:35,919 +so it's a world of floundering men is + +138 +00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,080 +very difficult to imagine as a world of + +139 +00:05:35,919 --> 00:05:39,120 +flourishing women or vice versa and I + +140 +00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,120 +think that was one of the central + +141 +00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,759 +insights of the women's movement + +142 +00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,360 +absolutely I think this is a really + +143 +00:05:42,759 --> 00:05:47,639 +critical issue many people feel that + +144 +00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,199 +they're struggling so right now here in + +145 +00:05:47,639 --> 00:05:51,159 +South Korea you know women face the + +146 +00:05:49,199 --> 00:05:53,560 +largest gender pay Gap in the oecd they + +147 +00:05:51,159 --> 00:05:55,600 +face massive discrimination at work and + +148 +00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,680 +they feel there's a r that women are + +149 +00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:01,319 +struggling meanwhile South Korean men + +150 +00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,280 +have mandatory conscription mandatory + +151 +00:06:01,319 --> 00:06:07,520 +conscription for the war in North Korea + +152 +00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:09,280 +and every single year a 100 men commit + +153 +00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,759 +suicide during that mandatory + +154 +00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:13,400 +conscription I mean it's absolutely + +155 +00:06:10,759 --> 00:06:15,960 +horrific hierarchical and brutal so both + +156 +00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,800 +sides have real real Grievances and + +157 +00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,759 +difficulties on top of that you know + +158 +00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,960 +many youngan men are struggling to find + +159 +00:06:19,759 --> 00:06:24,479 +Brides they're struggling to achieve + +160 +00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,880 +status in a very competitive Society you + +161 +00:06:24,479 --> 00:06:27,120 +know their parents have invested so much + +162 +00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,440 +in their education and now they're + +163 +00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,160 +unable to buy house so you know every + +164 +00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,159 +everyone everyone is having a really + +165 +00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:36,960 +really tough time in in a status uh + +166 +00:06:33,159 --> 00:06:39,159 +competition game so I am 100% with you + +167 +00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,520 +that it's important to connect to people + +168 +00:06:39,159 --> 00:06:43,479 +and learn about different life worlds + +169 +00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:46,599 +and learn about and build compassion and + +170 +00:06:43,479 --> 00:06:48,680 +support for one another so what issues + +171 +00:06:46,599 --> 00:06:50,919 +do men face and I'd like to start with + +172 +00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,680 +education because some of the findings + +173 +00:06:50,919 --> 00:06:56,800 +you have there are mindboggling boys and + +174 +00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:59,720 +men are behind in education at every + +175 +00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:02,240 +level from you know the age of five + +176 +00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,520 +through to the age of 25 in every + +177 +00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,840 +Advanced economy and in pretty much + +178 +00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,000 +every subject area you can choose your + +179 +00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:10,879 +metric but you'll get the same story and + +180 +00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,960 +it's very interesting that it is pretty + +181 +00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:15,960 +much a global phenomenon and what that + +182 +00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:18,120 +means it's not just something about the + +183 +00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,759 +American you education system or the + +184 +00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:22,280 +Spanish education system or the German + +185 +00:07:19,759 --> 00:07:23,879 +education system and in interestingly in + +186 +00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,520 +Scandinavia that's where you see the + +187 +00:07:23,879 --> 00:07:30,000 +biggest education gaps men have F Fallen + +188 +00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:32,800 +the furthest behind in Sweden nor Norway + +189 +00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:35,720 +Denmark and Finland which are very very + +190 +00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:38,360 +gender egalitarian countries so that's a + +191 +00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:40,039 +pretty consistent story is that um if + +192 +00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,639 +you take the gaps that existed say in + +193 +00:07:40,039 --> 00:07:43,960 +the + +194 +00:07:40,639 --> 00:07:46,400 +1970s uh in favor of men they're at + +195 +00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,560 +least as big now the other way around ac + +196 +00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,120 +across the basically across the advanced + +197 +00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,560 +world and even in many developing + +198 +00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,000 +countries and Middle Eastern countries + +199 +00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,240 +the girls are now ahead of the boys so + +200 +00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,960 +it's not just advanced economies now + +201 +00:07:55,240 --> 00:08:00,440 +it's like there's a worldwide gender gap + +202 +00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:03,360 +essentially why is there is + +203 +00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:06,159 +happening I think one big reason is that + +204 +00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,680 +girls will typically just mature a + +205 +00:08:06,159 --> 00:08:09,840 +little bit earlier than boys so their + +206 +00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,720 +brains develop a bit earlier they're not + +207 +00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,400 +smarter than boys so on the tests of + +208 +00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,840 +intelligence there's really no gender + +209 +00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:19,199 +gap at all none but in terms of grades + +210 +00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,599 +and graduation rates and so on young + +211 +00:08:19,199 --> 00:08:22,440 +women and girls are typically doing + +212 +00:08:20,599 --> 00:08:24,400 +better and it seems to be that's like + +213 +00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,919 +they they just enter they hit puberty + +214 +00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,199 +earlier that develops part of their + +215 +00:08:25,919 --> 00:08:29,680 +brain called The frontal cortex earlier + +216 +00:08:28,199 --> 00:08:31,199 +so girls aren't smarter than boys but + +217 +00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,080 +they do get that acte together a bit + +218 +00:08:31,199 --> 00:08:35,640 +earlier than boys and the education + +219 +00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,080 +system really rewards that as it should + +220 +00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,640 +but it means that to some extent girls + +221 +00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,399 +are at a bit of a natural Advantage + +222 +00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,039 +especially in adolescence so what + +223 +00:08:40,399 --> 00:08:44,880 +happens when these men leave school when + +224 +00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:46,959 +they enter the economy well first of all + +225 +00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,880 +if they don't do as well in education + +226 +00:08:46,959 --> 00:08:50,519 +they will struggle to find employment + +227 +00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,240 +and good employment that is not true for + +228 +00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:54,600 +their fathers their fathers May well + +229 +00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,760 +have been able to just do okay in school + +230 +00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,600 +and get a decent job but those jobs for + +231 +00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:02,000 +men have very significantly declined so + +232 +00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,079 +for example here in England house prices + +233 +00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,480 +have + +234 +00:09:03,079 --> 00:09:07,360 +skyrocketed and young people's wages + +235 +00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,320 +even though wages are rising it's much + +236 +00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,399 +much harder for young people to buy a + +237 +00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,160 +house um and that's the case in many + +238 +00:09:11,399 --> 00:09:15,040 +European capitals that young people are + +239 +00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,760 +unable to buy housing earlier this year + +240 +00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:20,560 +I in Spain a lot of Spanish young people + +241 +00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,320 +and also it Italians are on temporary + +242 +00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:25,560 +contracts you know young Italian men at + +243 +00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,000 +30 still living with their parents is + +244 +00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:30,640 +this a struggle only in comparative + +245 +00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,399 +terms when menen is yes they're doing + +246 +00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,240 +worse than their fathers but compared to + +247 +00:09:32,399 --> 00:09:37,000 +women they're still earning more that's + +248 +00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,640 +a great question and it depends there it + +249 +00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,760 +does vary by country so the the US is + +250 +00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:44,320 +unusual in the fact that there's been + +251 +00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,079 +this absolute drop in in male earnings + +252 +00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,440 +right from for the bottom half let's say + +253 +00:09:46,079 --> 00:09:49,519 +of the of the labor force that's not + +254 +00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,839 +true in other countries in other + +255 +00:09:49,519 --> 00:09:53,839 +countries they've at least seen some + +256 +00:09:50,839 --> 00:09:55,600 +wage gains um but in all countries + +257 +00:09:53,839 --> 00:09:57,279 +they've seen a significant shift in + +258 +00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,240 +their relative position relative to + +259 +00:09:57,279 --> 00:10:01,240 +women now of course that's the + +260 +00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,519 +inevitable and positive consequence of + +261 +00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:07,519 +more equality right if women are doing + +262 +00:10:03,519 --> 00:10:10,600 +better we want we want that Gap to close + +263 +00:10:07,519 --> 00:10:12,279 +um but it's easier for people to adjust + +264 +00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,959 +to that world of Greater relative + +265 +00:10:12,279 --> 00:10:15,920 +equality if they're also feeling like + +266 +00:10:13,959 --> 00:10:16,959 +they're doing absolutely better off + +267 +00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,120 +absolutely + +268 +00:10:16,959 --> 00:10:22,760 +better so we covered education we + +269 +00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,800 +covered the economic situation but + +270 +00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,880 +there's more to life than the economy so + +271 +00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:29,680 +how are men doing on other metrics and + +272 +00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,640 +you mentioned this St in your book + +273 +00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:35,320 +the found men who commit suicide were + +274 +00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:38,279 +likely to use words like useless and + +275 +00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:40,279 +worthless to describe themselves which + +276 +00:10:38,279 --> 00:10:42,120 +really breaks your heart when you read + +277 +00:10:40,279 --> 00:10:43,839 +it I think this is where a lot of the + +278 +00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,600 +real tragedy lies and so you're quite + +279 +00:10:43,839 --> 00:10:47,600 +right that you know male male suicide + +280 +00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:51,079 +victims and there are a lot I mean in + +281 +00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:53,720 +the US we lost 40,000 Men last year to + +282 +00:10:51,079 --> 00:10:55,600 +Suicide um and four times as many men as + +283 +00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,839 +women and you're right that those the + +284 +00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,959 +two words they most commonly use the men + +285 +00:10:57,839 --> 00:11:02,800 +who commit suicide use are useless and + +286 +00:11:00,959 --> 00:11:06,240 +worthless to describe + +287 +00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:09,320 +themselves and it it that sense of not + +288 +00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:11,839 +having a clear purpose not having a + +289 +00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:16,120 +clear sense of why you would be + +290 +00:11:11,839 --> 00:11:19,720 +needed I'm pretty sure that it's a human + +291 +00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:21,519 +Universal need to be needed and I would + +292 +00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:24,440 +say that for a lot of men right now it's + +293 +00:11:21,519 --> 00:11:26,839 +not clear to them that they are needed + +294 +00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:29,040 +you know do their kids need them does + +295 +00:11:26,839 --> 00:11:31,000 +their wife or girlfriend need them do + +296 +00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:34,639 +does the labor market need them who + +297 +00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,639 +needs them are they needed are they + +298 +00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:44,680 +necessary this leads me nicely to + +299 +00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:46,880 +another explanation I have often found + +300 +00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:48,399 +by the way these are not mutually + +301 +00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,519 +exclusive in fact they're all + +302 +00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:54,320 +interconnected but in any case it has + +303 +00:11:50,519 --> 00:11:57,240 +more to do with culture reasons the idea + +304 +00:11:54,320 --> 00:12:00,000 +that why patri key has pressed women + +305 +00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:02,320 +down it has also propped men up and now + +306 +00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,839 +that the system is changing women are + +307 +00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:09,320 +finally Rising but men kind of falling + +308 +00:12:05,839 --> 00:12:11,880 +when people ask me these questions um + +309 +00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:15,399 +about the the anxiety and the crisis of + +310 +00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:18,560 +masculinity what masculinity is always + +311 +00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:20,600 +in crisis we are always fearful that we + +312 +00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:22,600 +are not as manly and masculine as our + +313 +00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:26,720 +fathers and grandfathers both of my + +314 +00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:29,199 +grandfathers were manual laborers in + +315 +00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:33,160 +mining um you know they could would + +316 +00:12:29,199 --> 00:12:36,800 +diagnose and fix cars with their bare + +317 +00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:39,800 +hands uh I I don't have those abilities + +318 +00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:43,480 +I can't possibly live up to whatever + +319 +00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:46,639 +standard they embody um so feminine of + +320 +00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,959 +you it's incredibly feminine of me yes I + +321 +00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:51,560 +I you know I work in a college and I + +322 +00:12:48,959 --> 00:12:54,880 +talk for a living but I think that + +323 +00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:56,959 +historical context can can provide some + +324 +00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,839 +comfort that you know actually what + +325 +00:12:56,959 --> 00:13:02,160 +we're experiencing right now is totally + +326 +00:12:59,839 --> 00:13:04,000 +normal I take a point that everybody + +327 +00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,440 +always worries about a crisis of + +328 +00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,279 +masculinity but at the same time there's + +329 +00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:11,040 +obviously been something extraordinary + +330 +00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:12,760 +that perhaps we have never seen in + +331 +00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:16,160 +history with the mitu movement and the + +332 +00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:18,040 +feminist movement since the70s so I take + +333 +00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:21,620 +your point the masculinity is always in + +334 +00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:23,760 +a crisis but maybe sometimes there is a + +335 +00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:26,920 +[Laughter] + +336 +00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:30,399 +crisis I mean fair enough um certainly + +337 +00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:32,360 +we we''ve never seen this this level of + +338 +00:13:30,399 --> 00:13:35,480 +gender equality the way that that I like + +339 +00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:38,360 +to discuss this then is um don't look at + +340 +00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,880 +it in terms of what you've lost look at + +341 +00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,320 +it as an opportunity look at what you + +342 +00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:45,480 +stand to + +343 +00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:49,320 +gain um so sure you men are no longer + +344 +00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:51,759 +the default bread winner um that means + +345 +00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,800 +that we can be something else that + +346 +00:13:51,759 --> 00:13:56,000 +there's room there to have discussions + +347 +00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:59,120 +with our partners with our + +348 +00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:02,199 +families um to explore the possibility + +349 +00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:05,199 +of working part-time of being a + +350 +00:14:02,199 --> 00:14:07,320 +stay-at-home father uh these are + +351 +00:14:05,199 --> 00:14:10,839 +opportunities that being the default red + +352 +00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:12,920 +winner denied men I think that within + +353 +00:14:10,839 --> 00:14:14,800 +this framework you can add the backlash + +354 +00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,600 +explanation so the idea that we're + +355 +00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,839 +seeing a push back against women's + +356 +00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:23,000 +rights okay so I think there are two + +357 +00:14:20,839 --> 00:14:25,240 +elements so first of all if we look at + +358 +00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,360 +education women tend to be more educated + +359 +00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:30,519 +than men but I don't think that in + +360 +00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:33,160 +itself is causing in the problem the + +361 +00:14:30,519 --> 00:14:34,920 +backlashes when men feeling like they're + +362 +00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,360 +economically struggling compared to + +363 +00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,040 +other men so men care about their status + +364 +00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:42,199 +relative to other men so if a man is + +365 +00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:45,040 +inverted as a loser so if he is unable + +366 +00:14:42,199 --> 00:14:47,959 +to get a house a nice job a nice car and + +367 +00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:50,680 +keep up with other men then he may feel + +368 +00:14:47,959 --> 00:14:53,680 +that sense of strife and the and one of + +369 +00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:55,519 +the biggest blowbacks to inability to + +370 +00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,720 +achieve status or relative status among + +371 +00:14:55,519 --> 00:14:58,880 +men it's not just that you can't afford + +372 +00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,079 +you can't have the lifestyle that you + +373 +00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,399 +feel entitled to but that you may become + +374 +00:15:01,079 --> 00:15:04,800 +unattractive towards women so men who + +375 +00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:06,839 +think that their fathers were in a + +376 +00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,880 +better position to them now and then + +377 +00:15:06,839 --> 00:15:11,120 +they're told oh that more men are + +378 +00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,959 +remaining single is that sense of being + +379 +00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,000 +snubbed on The Dating Market that sense + +380 +00:15:12,959 --> 00:15:17,040 +of being unwanted by men that hurts + +381 +00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,839 +men's egos so I don't think it's about + +382 +00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,079 +all men failing because some men you + +383 +00:15:18,839 --> 00:15:22,639 +know in in Munich and Berlin they're on + +384 +00:15:21,079 --> 00:15:24,040 +a lot you know they're earning a lot of + +385 +00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:26,160 +money there's still a gender pay Gap + +386 +00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,759 +where men typically earn more than women + +387 +00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,920 +right so some men are doing fantastic + +388 +00:15:28,759 --> 00:15:33,519 +ially well right but some men are + +389 +00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:36,120 +struggling and also if I can jump on + +390 +00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:37,800 +that it's it's the idea of + +391 +00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,959 +intersectionality that one shouldn't + +392 +00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,920 +look at this only through the lens of + +393 +00:15:39,959 --> 00:15:44,639 +gender it's impossible to understand + +394 +00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:47,560 +this divide without looking at social + +395 +00:15:44,639 --> 00:15:50,000 +economic factors rich men are fine it's + +396 +00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:52,639 +really workingclass men who are + +397 +00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:55,000 +struggling class and race are both very + +398 +00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:57,959 +important so the gender gaps in the US + +399 +00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:00,160 +are much bigger in education and + +400 +00:15:57,959 --> 00:16:01,800 +employment for workingclass men but in + +401 +00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,639 +the US in particular there also issue + +402 +00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,839 +for black men especially the G the + +403 +00:16:03,639 --> 00:16:08,399 +gender gaps between black boys and black + +404 +00:16:05,839 --> 00:16:10,720 +girls black men and black women are + +405 +00:16:08,399 --> 00:16:13,240 +roughly twice the gender gaps for other + +406 +00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,319 +racial groups and so it's incredibly + +407 +00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,720 +important to look at these things + +408 +00:16:14,319 --> 00:16:17,399 +through that lens as you as you just + +409 +00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,199 +said like looking at it intersectionally + +410 +00:16:17,399 --> 00:16:21,800 +it's a horrible word but it's a useful + +411 +00:16:19,199 --> 00:16:23,759 +idea one of the big moves particularly + +412 +00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,720 +on the prog Center left side of the + +413 +00:16:23,759 --> 00:16:27,519 +political Spectrum has been to move away + +414 +00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,720 +from focusing on individual + +415 +00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:32,360 +responsibility to structural + +416 +00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,639 +disadvantages and I think that of course + +417 +00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,360 +both are important but but if we look at + +418 +00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:39,720 +like why for example in in the pandemic + +419 +00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,680 +why were black Americans you know so + +420 +00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,279 +much more exposed we didn't say well + +421 +00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,759 +it's BEC we didn't typically think it's + +422 +00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:46,480 +because black Americans weren't wearing + +423 +00:16:44,759 --> 00:16:48,120 +masks or they weren't doing anything we + +424 +00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,600 +thought no it's because of poverty it's + +425 +00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,440 +because of neighborhoods because black + +426 +00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,480 +Americans are more involved in in + +427 +00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,720 +Frontline work and similarly I think + +428 +00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,000 +that the women's movement actually moved + +429 +00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,720 +Beyond an + +430 +00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,399 +individualizing approach which which was + +431 +00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,720 +more about the shoulder pads right and + +432 +00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:03,440 +the voice training and more about no no + +433 +00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,119 +no it's about child care it's about the + +434 +00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,480 +structure of careers it's about the way + +435 +00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,559 +employers treat the think about family + +436 +00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,000 +life right it's structural there are + +437 +00:17:09,559 --> 00:17:12,839 +structural barriers to women's + +438 +00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,280 +inequality well in just the same way in + +439 +00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:17,520 +education now if boys are struggling in + +440 +00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:20,039 +the education which they are really + +441 +00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,559 +struggling in the classroom we should do + +442 +00:17:20,039 --> 00:17:24,280 +the same thing and say what is it about + +443 +00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:26,160 +the structure of Education that might + +444 +00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,559 +not be working very well for boys so if + +445 +00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,840 +I understand correctly more educated men + +446 +00:17:28,559 --> 00:17:34,200 +are also more likely to support + +447 +00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:36,720 +feminism yes absolutely so young uh + +448 +00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,960 +educated educated men who are rich + +449 +00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,520 +they're doing fantastically well right + +450 +00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,880 +they're doing fantastically well and + +451 +00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,559 +when you're doing fantastically well + +452 +00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,080 +you're less likely to have that zero + +453 +00:17:43,559 --> 00:17:48,880 +some mentality right you're doing well + +454 +00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:51,160 +yes we can all Thrive so you know uh + +455 +00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,679 +educated rich successful men yes + +456 +00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,360 +absolutely because they've already + +457 +00:17:52,679 --> 00:17:56,760 +achieved status they have achieved + +458 +00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:59,520 +status so women's gains are not a threat + +459 +00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:02,159 +to them but the irony here is that the + +460 +00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,840 +men who have the most traditional views + +461 +00:18:02,159 --> 00:18:06,039 +about the roles of men like the men + +462 +00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:09,720 +should be the bread winner the provider + +463 +00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:11,880 +are men from poorer communities who are + +464 +00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,960 +the least likely to be able to fulfill + +465 +00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,799 +that role so there's a real tragedy + +466 +00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,960 +there which is that actually kind of + +467 +00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:19,880 +upper middle class men who are super + +468 +00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,200 +feminist much more lik to be feminists + +469 +00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,159 +and don't have this view that men should + +470 +00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,640 +be providers they are providers and they + +471 +00:18:23,159 --> 00:18:27,960 +can be providers right it's a lot easier + +472 +00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,000 +to say that when you don't have to do it + +473 +00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,840 +exact exactly it's just so basically + +474 +00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,520 +like equality is much easier for the + +475 +00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,720 +affluent and well educated I think it's + +476 +00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,320 +really important that we think about + +477 +00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:42,440 +patriarchy as status beliefs that you + +478 +00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:44,200 +know a patriarchal society is one where + +479 +00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,919 +people think that men are high status + +480 +00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,799 +they are knowledgeable authorities + +481 +00:18:45,919 --> 00:18:52,440 +deserving of deference so even if a man + +482 +00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:55,159 +is unemployed or has a you know a pretty + +483 +00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:58,400 +crappy house he may still feel a sense + +484 +00:18:55,159 --> 00:19:01,000 +of dominance over women he may still um + +485 +00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:03,240 +be upset if a woman says no to his + +486 +00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,640 +advances if she spurns him so that + +487 +00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,520 +creates an in intense sense of struggle + +488 +00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,880 +and competition the feeling that life is + +489 +00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,919 +hard for them um and that that sense of + +490 +00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,240 +economic + +491 +00:19:11,919 --> 00:19:18,120 +resentment uh is associated with what a + +492 +00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:20,600 +pro Professor Stephanie staneva and + +493 +00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:22,440 +others called zero some mentalities the + +494 +00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,200 +idea that there is a fixed basket of + +495 +00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,559 +goods and gains for you come at my + +496 +00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,120 +expense well I think that the danger of + +497 +00:19:27,559 --> 00:19:30,640 +zero something thinking is present is + +498 +00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,240 +real you see it in survey evidence and + +499 +00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,080 +it's true but it's true on both sides + +500 +00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,360 +right I mean it's it's most obviously + +501 +00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,880 +true in the way you've just seen it + +502 +00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:39,039 +which is men saying well men are + +503 +00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,080 +suffering because women are rising but + +504 +00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:43,440 +it's also true when I try to persuade + +505 +00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:46,320 +policy makers to do more stuff about + +506 +00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,600 +boys and men they'll say no no no it's + +507 +00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,360 +women and girls who need help like no no + +508 +00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,039 +no they both need help my friend of mine + +509 +00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:54,520 +Dana bow and Matthew at Brooking she + +510 +00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:56,159 +said equality always feels like a loss + +511 +00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,000 +to the people who are previously + +512 +00:19:56,159 --> 00:20:00,679 +unfairly ahead and that's true it's back + +513 +00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,679 +to your point about relative status + +514 +00:20:00,679 --> 00:20:05,280 +earlier right if you if if it used to be + +515 +00:20:02,679 --> 00:20:07,559 +the case just being male just gave you + +516 +00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,640 +this unfair Advantage then the removal + +517 +00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:11,960 +of that is going to create some + +518 +00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:14,200 +dislocation right and to the extent it's + +519 +00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,480 +really great sentence equality feels + +520 +00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,679 +like a loss to the people who we + +521 +00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:20,880 +unfairly ahead right great I mean it is + +522 +00:20:18,679 --> 00:20:22,039 +isn't it and it's like well and so the + +523 +00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,240 +question then is like do we just roll + +524 +00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:26,760 +our eyes and say get over it right in a + +525 +00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,480 +space of a generation like what's wrong + +526 +00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,480 +with you and anybody that strug strling + +527 +00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:33,840 +with this transition is by default just + +528 +00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:36,480 +a misogynist reactionary right or do we + +529 +00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,720 +say look that's a tough change no + +530 +00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,360 +question we've lost some kind of + +531 +00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:43,720 +automatic status that's a good thing for + +532 +00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:45,640 +society but we should be we should be + +533 +00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,799 +honest about the fact that that is quite + +534 +00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:50,880 +a difficult change for people and then + +535 +00:20:47,799 --> 00:20:52,960 +we throw in terms like toxic masculinity + +536 +00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,840 +which sort of blames them for their own + +537 +00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,480 +plight then I just think we're going to + +538 +00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,360 +hold we're going to lose men if we keep + +539 +00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,280 +framing it this way and we're doing a + +540 +00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:02,840 +much better job right now of calling men + +541 +00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,480 +out rather than calling them in there + +542 +00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,520 +are just a few too many wagging fingers + +543 +00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,279 +and not quite enough Helping Hands what + +544 +00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:14,320 +do you think of the term toxic + +545 +00:21:10,279 --> 00:21:17,080 +masculinity you know I talk a lot about + +546 +00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:20,520 +toxic masculinity and and I discuss it + +547 +00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:24,520 +in terms of um getting people to think + +548 +00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:29,840 +of toxic not as uh a value + +549 +00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:33,840 +judgment um but rather of toxicity as + +550 +00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:36,919 +rigidity um and intolerance to + +551 +00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:39,400 +difference so what makes masculinity + +552 +00:21:36,919 --> 00:21:42,840 +toxic um for that matter I would argue + +553 +00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:48,159 +what makes femininity toxic is + +554 +00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:50,000 +prescribing um just one way one role to + +555 +00:21:48,159 --> 00:21:53,840 +operate in the world to move through + +556 +00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:56,600 +life and to behave in your interpersonal + +557 +00:21:53,840 --> 00:22:00,760 +relationships and then to to + +558 +00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:06,000 +demonize um exceptions to that + +559 +00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:06,960 +rule um now I don't always use the word + +560 +00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,080 +toxic + +561 +00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:14,080 +masculinity um despite liking it for + +562 +00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:15,240 +that reason um because it it has become + +563 +00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:19,279 +toxic + +564 +00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:22,000 +itself um if you use the word toxic in a + +565 +00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:24,880 +conversation about gender you can be + +566 +00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,159 +pretty certain that a large proportion + +567 +00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,279 +of the people that you're speaking to + +568 +00:22:26,159 --> 00:22:31,279 +will just shut off + +569 +00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:34,919 +um you you've now signaled what your + +570 +00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:36,440 +politics are um you've perhaps signaled + +571 +00:22:34,919 --> 00:22:39,279 +that you are their + +572 +00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:42,440 +enemy and uh and the conversation may be + +573 +00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:42,440 +over right + +574 +00:22:45,919 --> 00:22:51,840 +there so over the past 30 40 years media + +575 +00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:54,640 +has become increasingly negative we're + +576 +00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,760 +also spending more time on our phones + +577 +00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,440 +and that means we can self- select into + +578 +00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:02,200 +certain Echo Chambers just don't share a + +579 +00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:05,440 +consensus culture anymore you know there + +580 +00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:08,480 +there are no TV shows um that I can + +581 +00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:11,559 +mention in a classroom that more than a + +582 +00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:14,159 +quarter of my students have seen um I + +583 +00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:15,679 +taught a popular culture class so a + +584 +00:23:14,159 --> 00:23:18,360 +class that you would + +585 +00:23:15,679 --> 00:23:20,799 +assume um is filled with people who are + +586 +00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:23,880 +interested in music and film and + +587 +00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:25,279 +television and we had a running joke + +588 +00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,159 +which was that I was going to buy + +589 +00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:31,080 +everyone pizza if we could find one + +590 +00:23:28,159 --> 00:23:34,000 +movie that half of them had + +591 +00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:36,480 +seen uh and so it got to the point + +592 +00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:40,120 +halfway through the year we still hadn't + +593 +00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:42,760 +found that movie and then social media + +594 +00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:45,200 +corporations Keen to keep me will then + +595 +00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,279 +feed me more content that uh pleases my + +596 +00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:50,480 +PRI so they send me more stuff more + +597 +00:23:47,279 --> 00:23:53,600 +polarizing content and so because I'm in + +598 +00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,799 +this now social media filter bubble I + +599 +00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,080 +hear people who agree with me and I come + +600 +00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:58,400 +to feel oh yes that's right you know + +601 +00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,240 +because I don't don't see those views + +602 +00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,559 +being challenged or criticized so it's + +603 +00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,159 +because of the economic resentment + +604 +00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:05,840 +because of the zeros some mentalities + +605 +00:24:03,159 --> 00:24:08,279 +because of the technological shifts then + +606 +00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:11,600 +cultural entrepreneurs like menson in + +607 +00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:15,880 +Poland or Andrew Tate in England um or + +608 +00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:18,400 +vo in Spain can then make political + +609 +00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,559 +capital or cultural capital or a lot of + +610 +00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:24,400 +money right by harnessing and building + +611 +00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:25,320 +on the th those ideas what do you think + +612 +00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,440 +of + +613 +00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:31,159 +otate if you were to ask me + +614 +00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:35,279 +um who is the + +615 +00:24:31,159 --> 00:24:38,600 +most dangerous single person alive we + +616 +00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:41,480 +could of course go through lists of uh + +617 +00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:45,320 +political leaders obviously people who + +618 +00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:47,600 +are conducting Wars Andrew Tate though + +619 +00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:50,440 +uh is definitely in the conversation I + +620 +00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:55,039 +think for the most dangerous person + +621 +00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:59,520 +alive um just to see the incredible + +622 +00:24:55,039 --> 00:25:03,000 +influence the number of teenage boys who + +623 +00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:08,760 +don't just listen to him but idolize him + +624 +00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:12,320 +who feel that he uh he is not just um + +625 +00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:17,120 +important but profound in some + +626 +00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:18,960 +way uh and that you know he he speaks + +627 +00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:22,799 +Truth + +628 +00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:24,840 +uh that he he villainized he vilifies + +629 +00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:28,559 +women and + +630 +00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:30,840 +feminism um and he mocks + +631 +00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:35,919 +empathy + +632 +00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:40,159 +kindness uh the way that he is is + +633 +00:25:35,919 --> 00:25:43,760 +socializing these boys um I am terrified + +634 +00:25:40,159 --> 00:25:46,480 +to see you know what will our world look + +635 +00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:49,360 +like in 10 15 + +636 +00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,960 +years uh if we can't + +637 +00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:55,520 +deprogram the teenage boys who look up + +638 +00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:57,440 +to him I see people like Andrew Tay as + +639 +00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,760 +largely the symptom rather than the + +640 +00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,279 +cause + +641 +00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,520 +you have to risk saying there are some + +642 +00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:03,080 +aspects of what Andrew Tate says which + +643 +00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,760 +you can understand why young men would + +644 +00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,919 +be attracted to it it's just that he + +645 +00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,520 +then leads you into a place that is much + +646 +00:26:06,919 --> 00:26:11,360 +darker but the second thing I'm much + +647 +00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,279 +more interested Less in what Andrew Tate + +648 +00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:14,799 +and others are supplying and more that + +649 +00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:16,679 +they are finding a market the reason + +650 +00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:19,559 +they're finding a market is + +651 +00:26:16,679 --> 00:26:22,279 +because there are a lot of questions + +652 +00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:24,480 +that young men are struggling boys and + +653 +00:26:22,279 --> 00:26:26,720 +are struggling with now as we've just + +654 +00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,360 +discussed and so they're looking for + +655 +00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,279 +someone who's addressing those questions + +656 +00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:33,440 +and providing answers well who do they + +657 +00:26:31,279 --> 00:26:35,399 +find they find the reactionaries and why + +658 +00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:39,559 +do they find them because there's nobody + +659 +00:26:35,399 --> 00:26:41,520 +else there except perhaps some feminists + +660 +00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:43,440 +telling them well stop being so toxic + +661 +00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,799 +and you know be better allies for me + +662 +00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,080 +it's an unbelievable failure on on + +663 +00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:51,919 +cultural failure on our + +664 +00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:55,240 +part to have created a world where that + +665 +00:26:51,919 --> 00:26:58,360 +demand is going to those figures to that + +666 +00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:01,240 +Supply yeah I think that it is certainly + +667 +00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:03,600 +true that Andrew Tate offers men who are + +668 +00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,799 +looking for a male role model um + +669 +00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:10,000 +somebody to look up to and he doesn't + +670 +00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:11,760 +exclusively talk about women that's not + +671 +00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,279 +even the majority of what he offers + +672 +00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:17,880 +that's absolutely true uh what I do see + +673 +00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:20,399 +though is that his self-help is is a bit + +674 +00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:24,000 +of um it's a gateway + +675 +00:27:20,399 --> 00:27:27,080 +drug which is why I I would hesitate to + +676 +00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:29,200 +say well you know he he does this one + +677 +00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,520 +thing well there's nobody who is there + +678 +00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,679 +just to learn how to um be an accountant + +679 +00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,799 +apparently his accounting course um I've + +680 +00:27:34,679 --> 00:27:39,840 +read is actually quite + +681 +00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:42,399 +good uh but I do think that there there + +682 +00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,799 +we do have a problem um with strong male + +683 +00:27:42,399 --> 00:27:46,600 +role models so I'll give you one example + +684 +00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:48,200 +someone who is a a big follower of + +685 +00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,519 +Andrew Tate and I'm talking to him on + +686 +00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,000 +the on the on the phone and he said they + +687 +00:27:50,519 --> 00:27:55,120 +don't care about male suicide and I said + +688 +00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,159 +who's they and I'm sure they do he said + +689 +00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,960 +the government they don't care about + +690 +00:27:56,159 --> 00:27:59,840 +male suicide I said okay what's your + +691 +00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,919 +evidence they don't care he sends me to + +692 +00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:05,200 +the government website on suicide + +693 +00:28:02,919 --> 00:28:06,880 +disparities and says asks me the + +694 +00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,720 +question where do they mention the + +695 +00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,679 +gender gap the biggest gap of all which + +696 +00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,080 +is between men and women there's no + +697 +00:28:10,679 --> 00:28:14,720 +mention there's a page for lgbtq there's + +698 +00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,640 +a page for rural urban there's a page + +699 +00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,960 +for veterans it's all good stuff right + +700 +00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,840 +but there is no mention of the fact that + +701 +00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,440 +being male puts you at a four times + +702 +00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,039 +higher risk of suicide or that male + +703 +00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,880 +suicides are rising especially among + +704 +00:28:24,039 --> 00:28:28,159 +young men and I'm I'm I'm I'm thinking + +705 +00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,919 +no wonder + +706 +00:28:28,159 --> 00:28:32,279 +no wonder Andrew tapate and his others + +707 +00:28:29,919 --> 00:28:34,640 +can pick up followers because when they + +708 +00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:36,519 +say that the government and other + +709 +00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,679 +institutions aren't paying enough + +710 +00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:42,240 +attention to their issues they're + +711 +00:28:39,679 --> 00:28:44,960 +right and so what we have to do is make + +712 +00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,720 +them wrong we have to be able to say + +713 +00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,519 +what are you talking about the + +714 +00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,320 +government and the media are covering + +715 +00:28:47,519 --> 00:28:53,480 +this stuff all the time but I got to + +716 +00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,480 +tell you right now that's not + +717 +00:28:56,399 --> 00:28:59,240 +true + +718 +00:28:57,919 --> 00:29:01,200 +what do you think the solution could be + +719 +00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,960 +to bridge this + +720 +00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,720 +divide well you have to end with the the + +721 +00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,080 +hardest question right women can't just + +722 +00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,440 +live in their Echo chamber they can't + +723 +00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,640 +just live in their bubble because they + +724 +00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,720 +may have that online but when they start + +725 +00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:19,039 +moving through the real world they butt + +726 +00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,960 +up against patriarchy they butt up + +727 +00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:24,799 +against sexism and misogyny they can't + +728 +00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:27,559 +avoid it um men on the other hand + +729 +00:29:24,799 --> 00:29:30,480 +because we live in a patriarchy um + +730 +00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:34,360 +they're much more insulated in that way + +731 +00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:36,279 +and so part of the solution has to be um + +732 +00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:40,240 +men showing an increasing + +733 +00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:43,919 +willingness to enter spaces that they + +734 +00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:47,679 +are uncomfortable with as men we we are + +735 +00:29:43,919 --> 00:29:50,200 +often so used to moving through the + +736 +00:29:47,679 --> 00:29:53,799 +world with a certain level of + +737 +00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:56,519 +safety um you know you have a discussion + +738 +00:29:53,799 --> 00:29:59,360 +with uh any group of women and you will + +739 +00:29:56,519 --> 00:30:00,880 +hear about how anytime they're in public + +740 +00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:05,440 +they are thinking about their physical + +741 +00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:09,640 +safety so younger men ju just don't have + +742 +00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:12,279 +that same experience we feel entitled to + +743 +00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:15,279 +feeling comfortable and safe so how how + +744 +00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:16,000 +do we Bridge The Divide um listening to + +745 +00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:19,480 +new + +746 +00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,919 +voices entering new spaces to hear the + +747 +00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,880 +conversations that people who are not + +748 +00:30:20,919 --> 00:30:27,399 +like us are having I have to say I feel + +749 +00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,960 +a bit cynical about this because as a + +750 +00:30:27,399 --> 00:30:32,799 +teenager you just don't have the mindset + +751 +00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:34,960 +for this maybe when you're like 18 20 25 + +752 +00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:37,519 +but as a teenager you're whole + +753 +00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:40,279 +preoccupation is to fit within our group + +754 +00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:42,960 +isn't it I feel like sometimes we forget + +755 +00:30:40,279 --> 00:30:46,120 +that they're still very young like you + +756 +00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,640 +can expect men to change but boys maybe + +757 +00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,600 +that's expecting too much perhaps we + +758 +00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:55,120 +should expect the system to change and I + +759 +00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:57,799 +don't know how but perhaps phrases like + +760 +00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:00,200 +Boys Don't Cry can't you study like + +761 +00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:03,080 +sister maybe even toxic + +762 +00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,799 +masculinity they can make it sound for + +763 +00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:08,159 +someone still very young like these + +764 +00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:10,399 +issues are their + +765 +00:31:08,159 --> 00:31:14,080 +fault I I think you're you're actually + +766 +00:31:10,399 --> 00:31:16,120 +pointing toward one specific solution we + +767 +00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:19,679 +talk to their parents because it really + +768 +00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:21,799 +is it's not just teaching the children + +769 +00:31:19,679 --> 00:31:25,720 +but talking to the parents and talking + +770 +00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:28,240 +to them about uh how how they may be + +771 +00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:31,000 +contributing to the problem + +772 +00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,600 +not consciously not intentionally by + +773 +00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:37,720 +saying things like um you know toughen + +774 +00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,880 +up Boys Don't Cry so if if we can work + +775 +00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:42,600 +on + +776 +00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:45,240 +educating um not directly the children + +777 +00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,919 +but instead talking to their parents and + +778 +00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,240 +saying look here here are ways that you + +779 +00:31:47,919 --> 00:31:53,880 +can + +780 +00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:56,120 +concretely impact um the gender ideology + +781 +00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,720 +that your children develop in ways then + +782 +00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:01,000 +that may + +783 +00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:03,880 +um I would use the word inoculate or + +784 +00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:07,120 +vaccinate them against some of these + +785 +00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:10,320 +ideas uh because frankly it's never too + +786 +00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:13,399 +early to start teaching feminism to + +787 +00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,799 +children we we need to work very hard to + +788 +00:32:13,399 --> 00:32:18,320 +persuade fathers that they matter as + +789 +00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:20,320 +fathers even if they're not providers in + +790 +00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,200 +the traditional sense and so that means + +791 +00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:25,320 +when we have paid leave policies they + +792 +00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,120 +must be equal for fathers and mothers + +793 +00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,399 +and they must be independently available + +794 +00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,559 +to fathers and we need workplaces that + +795 +00:32:29,399 --> 00:32:33,200 +are father friendly we have to have a + +796 +00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:35,519 +massive recruitment Drive of men into + +797 +00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,639 +teaching into the healthcare professions + +798 +00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:39,320 +where there are few and fewer men we + +799 +00:32:37,639 --> 00:32:41,480 +need more Technical Training + +800 +00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,279 +apprenticeships technical high schools + +801 +00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,559 +which are good for boys especially the + +802 +00:32:44,279 --> 00:32:47,320 +other thing that we should I think + +803 +00:32:45,559 --> 00:32:49,960 +seriously consider as policy makers is + +804 +00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,480 +starting Boys in school a year later + +805 +00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,080 +just because they you know as we + +806 +00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,799 +discussed they do mature a little bit + +807 +00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,320 +later and in adolesence especially that + +808 +00:32:54,799 --> 00:32:58,880 +really count and then lastly as kind of + +809 +00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,639 +parents and you know journalists and + +810 +00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,760 +think tankers and policy makers and + +811 +00:33:00,639 --> 00:33:04,799 +Community leaders is let's take this + +812 +00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,919 +issue away from the culture + +813 +00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:09,159 +Warriors away from the people who want + +814 +00:33:06,919 --> 00:33:11,120 +to weaponize this or exploit this or + +815 +00:33:09,159 --> 00:33:12,440 +profit from this in one way or another + +816 +00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,440 +and just straightforwardly and + +817 +00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,360 +compassionately say there are a whole + +818 +00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,200 +bunch of issues that we we need to pay + +819 +00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,519 +attention more attention to now boys and + +820 +00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:23,720 +men and make those boys and men feel + +821 +00:33:20,519 --> 00:33:25,919 +seen and heard and loved and + +822 +00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,679 +acknowledged without in any way doing + +823 +00:33:25,919 --> 00:33:29,360 +any less for women and girl + +824 +00:33:27,679 --> 00:33:31,799 +clearly if if if one of the major + +825 +00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:34,159 +underlying economic drivers is stagnant + +826 +00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:35,679 +regions then it's really important to + +827 +00:33:34,159 --> 00:33:37,799 +boost economic growth to make sure + +828 +00:33:35,679 --> 00:33:41,039 +there's continued job creation to + +829 +00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:44,360 +improve perceptions of Mobility two I + +830 +00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:47,600 +think the the EU can think creatively + +831 +00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:49,639 +about uh regulating algorithms I mean we + +832 +00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,440 +we regulate so many other parts of our + +833 +00:33:49,639 --> 00:33:55,880 +society but the digital world I mean I + +834 +00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:58,519 +think the eu's previous uh agreement was + +835 +00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,399 +to assess the risk of different kinds of + +836 +00:33:58,519 --> 00:34:02,559 +Technologies but we haven't looked at + +837 +00:34:00,399 --> 00:34:04,760 +regulating these algorithms that create + +838 +00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:07,519 +such a distorted view like you know most + +839 +00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:10,239 +of us are so normal most of us are so + +840 +00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:13,119 +modate and boring yeah yeah yeah yeah + +841 +00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,119 +most of us are really + +842 +00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:20,440 +boring I think one thing to appreciate + +843 +00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,359 +is that there's polarization between + +844 +00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,800 +young men and women is partly a function + +845 +00:34:22,359 --> 00:34:27,040 +of cultural liberalization so in + +846 +00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,560 +December I was in usbekistan for a month + +847 +00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,320 +before that I was in India for two + +848 +00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,079 +months Morocco uh turkey in many of + +849 +00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,918 +these places there's so much Social + +850 +00:34:33,079 --> 00:34:36,320 +policing that men and women cannot think + +851 +00:34:34,918 --> 00:34:38,239 +differently you know women are + +852 +00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,280 +socialized for marriage and then you + +853 +00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,760 +have to stay put because divorce are + +854 +00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:45,639 +humiliating failure so on the one hand + +855 +00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,760 +people should not see this polarization + +856 +00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:50,040 +as a total catastrophe because in part + +857 +00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,079 +it reflects growing freedoms and growing + +858 +00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,280 +gender + +859 +00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:55,760 +equality um that said I think that my + +860 +00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,760 +comparative research Around the World + +861 +00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,760 +shows that there are these very common + +862 +00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,640 +structural drivers this isn't a story + +863 +00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,960 +just about one country it's a story + +864 +00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:07,000 +about economic stagnation uh corporate + +865 +00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,960 +algorithms and also these cultural + +866 +00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,000 +entrepreneurs those are the three things + +867 +00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,920 +that have the same effects in all rich + +868 +00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,119 +culturally liberal + +869 +00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,560 +countries thank you so much for this + +870 +00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:19,119 +great conversation it's been a pleasure + +871 +00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:22,359 +to talk with you about this very + +872 +00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:25,400 +difficult but also very important and + +873 +00:35:22,359 --> 00:35:30,040 +fascinating topic thank you all right + +874 +00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,040 +that was fun Take Care by bye +