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+1
+00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:09,840
+- In those quiet moments
+
+2
+00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,090
+when we find ourselves wrestling
+with trying to understand
+
+3
+00:00:12,090 --> 00:00:14,820
+the nature of our
+existence, it's only natural
+
+4
+00:00:14,820 --> 00:00:17,910
+to turn to the observable
+world for answers.
+
+5
+00:00:17,910 --> 00:00:19,560
+We look out at the cosmos to try
+
+6
+00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,600
+and decipher how the Universe came to be
+
+7
+00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,430
+or we consider the rules that govern
+
+8
+00:00:23,430 --> 00:00:25,533
+the smallest particles of matter-
+
+9
+00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,260
+all of the stuff that makes up you
+
+10
+00:00:28,260 --> 00:00:29,853
+and me and everything else.
+
+11
+00:00:30,690 --> 00:00:31,650
+But there's something else
+
+12
+00:00:31,650 --> 00:00:33,840
+that's fundamental to our existence.
+
+13
+00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,110
+The thing that makes us, us.
+
+14
+00:00:37,110 --> 00:00:39,513
+That, in a word, is consciousness.
+
+15
+00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:42,423
+But what exactly is consciousness?
+
+16
+00:00:47,430 --> 00:00:48,690
+- It seems to me that so many
+
+17
+00:00:48,690 --> 00:00:51,270
+of the conversations about consciousness
+
+18
+00:00:51,270 --> 00:00:54,930
+and existence can be incredibly esoteric,
+
+19
+00:00:54,930 --> 00:00:56,970
+but you are a person who's actually
+
+20
+00:00:56,970 --> 00:00:59,550
+doing scientific investigation
+
+21
+00:00:59,550 --> 00:01:03,090
+into questions of consciousness.
+
+22
+00:01:03,090 --> 00:01:05,250
+How do you make it coherent
+
+23
+00:01:05,250 --> 00:01:07,770
+and make it something
+that you can, actually,
+
+24
+00:01:07,770 --> 00:01:12,770
+wrap your hand around
+when it seems so huge?
+
+25
+00:01:13,590 --> 00:01:14,880
+- How did that feel?
+
+26
+00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,550
+- It felt like something,
+the quality of a handshake.
+
+27
+00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:19,470
+- That's what conscious
+is-it's not esoteric.
+
+28
+00:01:19,470 --> 00:01:20,910
+It's the most basic thing there is.
+
+29
+00:01:20,910 --> 00:01:21,743
+- Okay.
+
+30
+00:01:21,743 --> 00:01:22,920
+- When somebody steps on your toe
+
+31
+00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,690
+or I'm thinking whether
+I should step on your toe
+
+32
+00:01:24,690 --> 00:01:27,360
+to make the point, it hurts.
+
+33
+00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:28,193
+- Yeah.
+- That's what
+
+34
+00:01:28,193 --> 00:01:29,026
+conscious is-
+
+35
+00:01:29,026 --> 00:01:29,859
+it's as basic as that.
+
+36
+00:01:29,859 --> 00:01:31,050
+It's what you see. It's what you hear.
+
+37
+00:01:31,050 --> 00:01:32,100
+It's the pains you have.
+
+38
+00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:33,090
+It's the love you have.
+
+39
+00:01:33,090 --> 00:01:35,670
+The fear, the passion,
+that's all consciousness.
+
+40
+00:01:35,670 --> 00:01:38,220
+- So it's experience and awareness.
+
+41
+00:01:38,220 --> 00:01:39,053
+- It's really the same,
+
+42
+00:01:39,053 --> 00:01:40,950
+with different names for experience,
+
+43
+00:01:40,950 --> 00:01:43,259
+awareness, subjectivity, phenomenology,
+
+44
+00:01:43,259 --> 00:01:45,360
+qualia, these all different words
+
+45
+00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,220
+that philosophers, other
+people have invented.
+
+46
+00:01:47,220 --> 00:01:50,700
+It is the experience of anything.
+
+47
+00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:54,479
+If I'm dead, if I'm deeply anesthetized
+
+48
+00:01:54,479 --> 00:01:56,990
+or I'm in a deep sleep,
+there is no one there.
+
+49
+00:01:56,990 --> 00:01:57,823
+There's no one home,
+
+50
+00:01:57,823 --> 00:01:59,039
+there's no experiences.
+
+51
+00:01:59,039 --> 00:02:00,150
+So that's the difference.
+
+52
+00:02:00,150 --> 00:02:03,090
+It's a central aspect
+of my life that I feel.
+
+53
+00:02:03,090 --> 00:02:06,330
+You know it's the most famous
+deduction in Western thought,
+
+54
+00:02:06,330 --> 00:02:08,538
+'cogito, ergo sum,' literally means
+
+55
+00:02:08,538 --> 00:02:09,990
+"I'm conscious, therefore, I know I am."
+
+56
+00:02:09,990 --> 00:02:13,560
+The only way I know I exist,
+because I'm conscious.
+
+57
+00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,930
+Remember Neo in "The Matrix"?
+- Um-hm.
+
+58
+00:02:15,930 --> 00:02:17,730
+- You know at one point
+
+59
+00:02:17,730 --> 00:02:19,130
+he wakes up to the true world
+
+60
+00:02:19,130 --> 00:02:20,250
+or the world of the machine,
+
+61
+00:02:20,250 --> 00:02:22,079
+but he never has any doubt that he exists.
+
+62
+00:02:22,079 --> 00:02:25,083
+Why? Because he experiences things.
+
+63
+00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:28,710
+- Humanity has made tremendous progress
+
+64
+00:02:28,710 --> 00:02:30,360
+in our understanding of the world-
+
+65
+00:02:31,380 --> 00:02:33,720
+and yet, there remains no widely accepted
+
+66
+00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,003
+explanation of what consciousness is.
+
+67
+00:02:36,930 --> 00:02:39,210
+It's still this tantalizing mystery
+
+68
+00:02:39,210 --> 00:02:42,093
+for scientists and philosophers alike.
+
+69
+00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,950
+This is, as the philosopher
+David Chalmers coined it,
+
+70
+00:02:46,950 --> 00:02:48,993
+"The hard problem of consciousness."
+
+71
+00:02:53,850 --> 00:02:56,970
+In this episode we'll
+visit neuroscientists,
+
+72
+00:02:56,970 --> 00:03:01,200
+spiritual leaders,
+entrepreneurs, AI experts
+
+73
+00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,470
+and even a Nobel laureate
+as we try to unpack
+
+74
+00:03:04,470 --> 00:03:06,210
+the mystery of consciousness
+
+75
+00:03:06,210 --> 00:03:08,310
+and continue humanity's eternal search
+
+76
+00:03:08,310 --> 00:03:10,950
+for meaning and purpose in our vast,
+
+77
+00:03:10,950 --> 00:03:13,980
+miraculously complicated,
+rapidly expanding
+
+78
+00:03:13,980 --> 00:03:17,490
+and incomparably mysterious cosmos.
+
+79
+00:03:17,490 --> 00:03:19,857
+This is "Dispatches from The Well".
+
+80
+00:03:31,650 --> 00:03:33,630
+"I think therefore, I am."
+
+81
+00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:35,430
+This was the fundamental thing
+
+82
+00:03:35,430 --> 00:03:37,530
+that philosopher and
+scientist, Rene Descartes,
+
+83
+00:03:37,530 --> 00:03:39,990
+believed he could say about the world.
+
+84
+00:03:39,990 --> 00:03:42,753
+I think, therefore, I am.
+
+85
+00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,020
+No matter what anyone might do or say
+
+86
+00:03:46,020 --> 00:03:48,603
+that fundamental truth
+appears to be inviolable.
+
+87
+00:03:49,590 --> 00:03:51,480
+Ultimately, I am something.
+
+88
+00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:52,560
+Bye.
+
+89
+00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,350
+There is an experience of being me
+
+90
+00:03:55,350 --> 00:03:58,293
+and there is presumably an
+experience of being you.
+
+91
+00:04:00,570 --> 00:04:02,580
+So as we seek to understand the Universe
+
+92
+00:04:02,580 --> 00:04:06,120
+in which we all live, all of
+our inquiries have to start
+
+93
+00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,993
+from this same subjective
+standpoint, the self.
+
+94
+00:04:12,420 --> 00:04:14,520
+So we're here in New York at the New York
+
+95
+00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,579
+Academy of Sciences'
+Consciousness Conference,
+
+96
+00:04:17,579 --> 00:04:20,700
+and I am certainly someone
+who has thought a lot
+
+97
+00:04:20,700 --> 00:04:23,460
+about the hard problem of consciousness,
+
+98
+00:04:23,460 --> 00:04:26,940
+how it emerges and what
+the hell it even is
+
+99
+00:04:26,940 --> 00:04:29,640
+and how to talk about
+it in a thoughtful way.
+
+100
+00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,010
+There is the question of existence
+
+101
+00:04:32,010 --> 00:04:34,380
+and directly related to that
+
+102
+00:04:34,380 --> 00:04:38,310
+is this question of our
+experience of existence.
+
+103
+00:04:38,310 --> 00:04:40,350
+I'm not sure if those are
+two separate questions
+
+104
+00:04:40,350 --> 00:04:44,280
+or one question, but taken all together,
+
+105
+00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:47,760
+it's certainly something
+that feels really profound.
+
+106
+00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,927
+In fact, it feels, which
+is kind of the whole nut.
+
+107
+00:04:53,550 --> 00:04:55,503
+The feeling of life itself.
+
+108
+00:04:56,414 --> 00:04:59,580
+This is how Christof Koch
+describes consciousness.
+
+109
+00:04:59,580 --> 00:05:02,040
+It's also the title of his
+most recent book on the subject
+
+110
+00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,140
+in which he argues that consciousness
+
+111
+00:05:04,140 --> 00:05:07,053
+is likely more widespread
+than previously assumed.
+
+112
+00:05:08,369 --> 00:05:09,690
+For more than 30 years,
+
+113
+00:05:09,690 --> 00:05:12,450
+Christof has been working to
+better understand how the brain
+
+114
+00:05:12,450 --> 00:05:16,140
+generates subjective
+experience and self-awareness.
+
+115
+00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:17,700
+So who better to help us understand
+
+116
+00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:19,680
+the contours of this debate
+
+117
+00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,230
+and help define some of the key terms?
+
+118
+00:05:22,230 --> 00:05:23,550
+- If you go to grad school,
+
+119
+00:05:23,550 --> 00:05:25,590
+they tell you physics
+is fundamental studies,
+
+120
+00:05:25,590 --> 00:05:26,423
+everything there is.
+
+121
+00:05:26,423 --> 00:05:29,340
+And you learn about relativity theory
+
+122
+00:05:29,340 --> 00:05:33,210
+and you learn about quantum
+mechanics and electrodynamics,
+
+123
+00:05:33,210 --> 00:05:35,880
+but nowhere is there
+anything about consciousness.
+
+124
+00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:37,860
+But here I am, I'm conscious,
+
+125
+00:05:37,860 --> 00:05:41,430
+so how do I go from
+these wonderful theories,
+
+126
+00:05:41,430 --> 00:05:43,560
+but they don't have anything
+about conscious in them
+
+127
+00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,360
+to a conscious being-
+
+128
+00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:46,593
+that's the mystery.
+
+129
+00:05:47,790 --> 00:05:50,070
+- What is that lack of interest
+
+130
+00:05:50,070 --> 00:05:51,720
+in the question of consciousness?
+
+131
+00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,510
+Is it a lack of interest
+that that informs that?
+
+132
+00:05:54,510 --> 00:05:58,200
+- No, I think many scientists would say,
+
+133
+00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,360
+"I don't doubt that I'm conscious,
+
+134
+00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,670
+but I don't know how to
+study it empirically.
+
+135
+00:06:02,670 --> 00:06:05,340
+It's something we should
+leave with the philosophers."
+
+136
+00:06:05,340 --> 00:06:07,200
+But I always felt that's a cop-out,
+
+137
+00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,500
+because if science claims
+to understand everything,
+
+138
+00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:12,380
+how can it not describe the
+central fact of my existence?
+
+139
+00:06:12,380 --> 00:06:13,887
+- Right.
+- That I'm conscious
+
+140
+00:06:13,887 --> 00:06:15,380
+and that you're also conscious,
+
+141
+00:06:15,380 --> 00:06:16,830
+so it has to account for it.
+
+142
+00:06:16,830 --> 00:06:18,810
+- The principle instrument
+that we're using
+
+143
+00:06:18,810 --> 00:06:20,269
+alongside any other tools-
+
+144
+00:06:20,269 --> 00:06:21,102
+- Yes, yes.
+- To try and comprehend.
+
+145
+00:06:21,102 --> 00:06:23,040
+- Yes, without conscious there's nothing.
+
+146
+00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,250
+Without conscience, I can't
+even look at any meter.
+
+147
+00:06:26,250 --> 00:06:27,780
+I can't do science. I can't do anything.
+
+148
+00:06:27,780 --> 00:06:29,820
+So I have to understand the tools
+
+149
+00:06:29,820 --> 00:06:31,830
+that I use to understand the world.
+
+150
+00:06:31,830 --> 00:06:35,403
+- How did you become interested
+in these kinds of questions?
+
+151
+00:06:36,510 --> 00:06:38,808
+- I had a really bad toothache.
+
+152
+00:06:38,808 --> 00:06:39,641
+- Okay.
+
+153
+00:06:39,641 --> 00:06:42,450
+- Why does it hurt? Why does it hurt?
+
+154
+00:06:42,450 --> 00:06:44,850
+Well the conventional explanation,
+
+155
+00:06:44,850 --> 00:06:46,290
+which is true as far as it goes,
+
+156
+00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:48,270
+you know your tooth is inflamed,
+
+157
+00:06:48,270 --> 00:06:51,030
+sends electrical energy
+down your trigeminal nerve
+
+158
+00:06:51,030 --> 00:06:52,500
+that goes inside the spinal cord
+
+159
+00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:56,159
+is switched to a double relay
+all the way up to cortex.
+
+160
+00:06:56,159 --> 00:06:57,300
+And now in your brain proper,
+
+161
+00:06:57,300 --> 00:06:59,400
+you have some neurons that fire.
+
+162
+00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:00,233
+What does that mean?
+
+163
+00:07:00,233 --> 00:07:01,066
+Well, that means
+
+164
+00:07:01,066 --> 00:07:02,880
+some potassium-chloride ions sloshing on.
+
+165
+00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,760
+So what? Well, I mean, why does it hurt?
+
+166
+00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:07,440
+There are ions sloshing on my liver
+
+167
+00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,410
+and I have no conscious
+awareness or my heart.
+
+168
+00:07:10,410 --> 00:07:12,840
+Hell, there's stuff occurring
+all the time in my body,
+
+169
+00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:13,673
+but I don't feel it.
+
+170
+00:07:13,673 --> 00:07:16,050
+But somehow here it feels.
+
+171
+00:07:16,050 --> 00:07:18,360
+So there's this explanatory gap,
+
+172
+00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:19,740
+this is what philosophers call them.
+
+173
+00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:22,560
+On the one hand you have
+physics, you have the brain,
+
+174
+00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,540
+or heart and other organs,
+
+175
+00:07:24,540 --> 00:07:27,360
+and the other hand you
+have conscious experience
+
+176
+00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,750
+and it's very unclear how do
+you get from one to the other.
+
+177
+00:07:30,750 --> 00:07:34,170
+Okay, this is the beating
+heart of the mind-body problem.
+
+178
+00:07:34,170 --> 00:07:36,600
+And I was a physicist and
+a budding neuroscientist,
+
+179
+00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:37,433
+so I said,
+
+180
+00:07:37,433 --> 00:07:39,240
+"Hell, neuroscience should be
+able to address this, right.
+
+181
+00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:40,073
+'Cause after all,
+
+182
+00:07:40,073 --> 00:07:44,000
+it's not the heart that gives
+rise to pain it's the brain.
+
+183
+00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,050
+So I'm a brain scientist,
+so we should be able
+
+184
+00:07:46,050 --> 00:07:49,020
+to use modern, scientific
+techniques to understand
+
+185
+00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:53,043
+the link between the
+brain and consciousness."
+
+186
+00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:56,220
+At the time I was working
+with Francis Crick,
+
+187
+00:07:56,220 --> 00:07:57,750
+the Nobel laureate who discovered
+
+188
+00:07:57,750 --> 00:08:00,090
+the double helical structure of DNA.
+
+189
+00:08:00,090 --> 00:08:01,890
+And he and I then popularized
+
+190
+00:08:01,890 --> 00:08:04,650
+this notion of the neuronal
+footprint of consciousness
+
+191
+00:08:04,650 --> 00:08:08,310
+called the NCC, the Neuronal
+Correlates of Consciousness,
+
+192
+00:08:08,310 --> 00:08:10,530
+using scientific tools to track
+
+193
+00:08:10,530 --> 00:08:12,137
+where are the footprints in your brain?
+
+194
+00:08:12,137 --> 00:08:13,355
+Are they all over the brain
+
+195
+00:08:13,355 --> 00:08:15,174
+or are they just in a
+particular part of the brain?
+
+196
+00:08:15,174 --> 00:08:18,630
+Are they in your spinal cord?
+When do we first see them?
+
+197
+00:08:18,630 --> 00:08:19,980
+- According to this theory,
+
+198
+00:08:19,980 --> 00:08:21,420
+there are specific mechanisms
+
+199
+00:08:21,420 --> 00:08:22,710
+in the brain that are necessary
+
+200
+00:08:22,710 --> 00:08:26,220
+and sufficient for a
+conscious experience to occur.
+
+201
+00:08:26,220 --> 00:08:28,380
+If this could be sufficiently measured,
+
+202
+00:08:28,380 --> 00:08:30,570
+scientists might at
+least be able to identify
+
+203
+00:08:30,570 --> 00:08:32,700
+where consciousness occurs in the brain,
+
+204
+00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:35,340
+even if we couldn't explain how.
+
+205
+00:08:35,340 --> 00:08:37,440
+In spite of more than
+three decades of study
+
+206
+00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,909
+since Koch and Crick put forth this theory
+
+207
+00:08:40,909 --> 00:08:44,010
+it remains just that, a theory.
+
+208
+00:08:44,010 --> 00:08:47,940
+Is consciousness simply an
+attribute of the material world?
+
+209
+00:08:47,940 --> 00:08:51,660
+Or does it exist somewhere
+else on some other plane?
+
+210
+00:08:51,660 --> 00:08:53,970
+Do we have any way of knowing?
+
+211
+00:08:53,970 --> 00:08:57,300
+- I would say the shoe's
+on the other foot.
+
+212
+00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:00,450
+Essentially, philosophy of
+minds organize around two poles:
+
+213
+00:09:00,450 --> 00:09:02,370
+the physical and the mental.
+
+214
+00:09:02,370 --> 00:09:04,950
+Materialism says, "All there is, is matter
+
+215
+00:09:04,950 --> 00:09:06,930
+and consciousness is, you're
+really confused about it.
+
+216
+00:09:06,930 --> 00:09:08,220
+It doesn't really exist."
+
+217
+00:09:08,220 --> 00:09:10,890
+That's what a modern analytical
+philosopher would say.
+
+218
+00:09:10,890 --> 00:09:11,910
+An idealist would say,
+
+219
+00:09:11,910 --> 00:09:14,520
+"Well, the only thing that
+really exists is mental
+
+220
+00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,580
+and this entire world, ultimately,
+
+221
+00:09:16,580 --> 00:09:18,420
+is a manifestation of the mental."
+
+222
+00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:19,710
+And there's some people who say,
+
+223
+00:09:19,710 --> 00:09:21,540
+"Well, both exist simultaneously
+
+224
+00:09:21,540 --> 00:09:23,430
+and it's like the inside and the outside."
+
+225
+00:09:23,430 --> 00:09:26,220
+From the outside, there's
+this physical thing:
+
+226
+00:09:26,220 --> 00:09:27,660
+You, including your brain.
+
+227
+00:09:27,660 --> 00:09:29,940
+But then from the inside you feel.
+
+228
+00:09:29,940 --> 00:09:32,130
+That's exactly the way
+this physical system
+
+229
+00:09:32,130 --> 00:09:33,150
+feels from the inside.
+
+230
+00:09:33,150 --> 00:09:37,093
+So both exist simultaneously,
+which is known as panpsychism.
+
+231
+00:09:38,430 --> 00:09:40,800
+- Panpsychism suggests that consciousness,
+
+232
+00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,560
+the subjective experience of being aware,
+
+233
+00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:46,560
+isn't just something that
+humans and some animals have.
+
+234
+00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:49,890
+Instead, the theory goes,
+consciousness may be
+
+235
+00:09:49,890 --> 00:09:53,520
+an inherent characteristic of all matter.
+
+236
+00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,740
+Imagine every tiny thing in the Universe
+
+237
+00:09:55,740 --> 00:09:58,860
+has some tiny bit of consciousness.
+
+238
+00:09:58,860 --> 00:10:02,220
+Whether you buy it or not,
+it's an intriguing theory.
+
+239
+00:10:02,220 --> 00:10:05,343
+So what's the difference
+between dualism and panpsychism?
+
+240
+00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,890
+- So dualism says there are
+really two different domains.
+
+241
+00:10:10,890 --> 00:10:11,820
+This is the way I grew up.
+
+242
+00:10:11,820 --> 00:10:15,180
+I grew up as a Catholic
+and so they teach you,
+
+243
+00:10:15,180 --> 00:10:19,203
+'Okay, there's your brain and
+then there is the real you.
+
+244
+00:10:19,203 --> 00:10:22,200
+This is like the spirit
+floating above the water
+
+245
+00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,220
+and that's a soul.
+
+246
+00:10:23,220 --> 00:10:24,660
+And the soul makes you do thing,
+
+247
+00:10:24,660 --> 00:10:27,780
+you know the soul ultimately
+decides like a free will
+
+248
+00:10:27,780 --> 00:10:29,220
+and of course once you die,
+
+249
+00:10:29,220 --> 00:10:32,250
+the soul sort of gets
+disconnected from the body
+
+250
+00:10:32,250 --> 00:10:34,740
+and maybe gets resurrected
+at the end of time
+
+251
+00:10:34,740 --> 00:10:37,380
+to live in the eschaton and all of that.'
+
+252
+00:10:37,380 --> 00:10:39,910
+But then the problem has always been
+
+253
+00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:44,430
+what's the connection between
+the brain, the physical
+
+254
+00:10:44,430 --> 00:10:45,840
+and the mental, the soul?
+
+255
+00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,300
+Because if the soul is
+really spooky stuff,
+
+256
+00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:51,750
+how does the soul make my brain do things?
+
+257
+00:10:51,750 --> 00:10:55,230
+And so there's no
+evidence for such a soul,
+
+258
+00:10:55,230 --> 00:10:57,780
+you know because it
+has to exchange energy.
+
+259
+00:10:57,780 --> 00:10:59,520
+We've never measured any such a soul.
+
+260
+00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:00,780
+So we got rid of it.
+
+261
+00:11:00,780 --> 00:11:02,460
+Panpsychism is different.
+
+262
+00:11:02,460 --> 00:11:04,950
+Panpsychism really says, "Fundamentally,
+
+263
+00:11:04,950 --> 00:11:06,840
+everything in the
+universe has two aspects:
+
+264
+00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,270
+has an inner aspect and
+has an outer aspect."
+
+265
+00:11:09,270 --> 00:11:11,970
+It's not something in additional
+you have to presuppose,
+
+266
+00:11:11,970 --> 00:11:15,690
+but it comes inherent
+with object, with things.
+
+267
+00:11:15,690 --> 00:11:18,870
+Complex things have complex
+minds associated with it.
+
+268
+00:11:18,870 --> 00:11:21,870
+Simple things like maybe a fly or Protozoa
+
+269
+00:11:21,870 --> 00:11:25,590
+have very, very, very simple
+minds associated with them.
+
+270
+00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:27,183
+- So there are degrees of consciousness?
+
+271
+00:11:27,183 --> 00:11:28,230
+- Yes.
+- And we can imagine
+
+272
+00:11:28,230 --> 00:11:30,690
+this consciousness
+evolving in different ways.
+
+273
+00:11:30,690 --> 00:11:31,523
+- That's correct.
+
+274
+00:11:31,523 --> 00:11:33,318
+So we have a lot of it but,
+
+275
+00:11:33,318 --> 00:11:34,980
+of course, there could be
+creatures who have more.
+
+276
+00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:37,017
+And as a baby with little of it,
+
+277
+00:11:37,017 --> 00:11:38,973
+and a dog has has less of it.
+
+278
+00:11:38,973 --> 00:11:41,340
+Like my dog doesn't
+know about the weekend,
+
+279
+00:11:41,340 --> 00:11:43,020
+but my dog is clearly conscious.
+
+280
+00:11:43,020 --> 00:11:44,117
+You know it can have pain and pleasure
+
+281
+00:11:44,117 --> 00:11:46,110
+and it can be happy and sad.
+
+282
+00:11:46,110 --> 00:11:47,550
+And mice, presumably, have less
+
+283
+00:11:47,550 --> 00:11:50,100
+and bees, presumably, have
+less and somewhere down there
+
+284
+00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:52,719
+becomes so dim at the root of life.
+
+285
+00:11:52,719 --> 00:11:55,239
+You know does a fly
+really have consciousness?
+
+286
+00:11:55,239 --> 00:11:58,350
+Right now, it's very difficult
+to address experimentally.
+
+287
+00:11:58,350 --> 00:12:00,840
+But it may well feel like
+something to be a bee,
+
+288
+00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,173
+to be alive, to have just
+drank some golden nectar.
+
+289
+00:12:15,510 --> 00:12:16,770
+- Over on the other side of Central Park
+
+290
+00:12:16,770 --> 00:12:18,300
+is an unassuming townhouse
+
+291
+00:12:18,300 --> 00:12:21,278
+wherein the Vedanta Society
+of New York is housed.
+
+292
+00:12:21,278 --> 00:12:22,111
+Hey.
+
+293
+00:12:22,111 --> 00:12:23,250
+- Namaste, namaste.
+- Namaste.
+
+294
+00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:24,990
+- And good morning.
+- Pleasure to meet you.
+
+295
+00:12:24,990 --> 00:12:26,160
+It's a place where consciousness
+
+296
+00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,443
+has been a topic for more than 100 years.
+
+297
+00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,190
+Swami Sarvapriyananda, a Hindu monk,
+
+298
+00:12:32,190 --> 00:12:34,263
+is its minister and spiritual leader.
+
+299
+00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:41,120
+You're in a profession that
+is, by definition almost,
+
+300
+00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:44,640
+interested in these
+questions on the perimeter
+
+301
+00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,500
+of what we can know for certain.
+
+302
+00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:47,333
+- Yes.
+
+303
+00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:51,990
+- That traffics in things that all of us,
+
+304
+00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:54,270
+I think, wrestle with
+to different degrees:
+
+305
+00:12:54,270 --> 00:12:56,640
+Who am I? Why am I here?
+
+306
+00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,800
+What am I supposed to do?
+
+307
+00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,430
+- I think human beings, wherever they are
+
+308
+00:13:02,430 --> 00:13:04,020
+and whichever time we live,
+
+309
+00:13:04,020 --> 00:13:06,990
+we have always been fascinated
+by these big questions.
+
+310
+00:13:06,990 --> 00:13:09,240
+As you said, who am I really?
+
+311
+00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:10,650
+What am I doing here?
+
+312
+00:13:10,650 --> 00:13:14,340
+What's the point of all of
+this and what's our destiny?
+
+313
+00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:15,990
+And what is this?
+
+314
+00:13:15,990 --> 00:13:19,323
+- How do you define consciousness?
+
+315
+00:13:20,430 --> 00:13:22,890
+- That's a great question
+and, I would say,
+
+316
+00:13:22,890 --> 00:13:26,250
+the central theme in what we teach
+
+317
+00:13:26,250 --> 00:13:28,980
+in the philosophy of
+Vedanta is consciousness.
+
+318
+00:13:28,980 --> 00:13:29,813
+- Hmm.
+
+319
+00:13:29,813 --> 00:13:34,170
+- The reason Vedanta and
+other Indian philosophies,
+
+320
+00:13:34,170 --> 00:13:36,000
+in general, have been
+interest in consciousness
+
+321
+00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,210
+is the common project in ancient India
+
+322
+00:13:39,210 --> 00:13:41,910
+was how to go beyond suffering.
+
+323
+00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:45,030
+How to attain fulfillment in human life
+
+324
+00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:46,920
+and that concerns the human self.
+
+325
+00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,250
+And when you come to
+the human self, us, I,
+
+326
+00:13:50,250 --> 00:13:51,360
+the first thing that strikes you
+
+327
+00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,540
+is that central to
+ourselves is consciousness.
+
+328
+00:13:54,540 --> 00:13:56,010
+And so they became very interested
+
+329
+00:13:56,010 --> 00:13:57,903
+in what this consciousness was.
+
+330
+00:13:58,830 --> 00:14:03,270
+The way we look at consciousness
+is from the inside out.
+
+331
+00:14:03,270 --> 00:14:06,630
+If you ask Christof Koch or
+some of the brain scientists,
+
+332
+00:14:06,630 --> 00:14:09,330
+they try to look at it from outside in.
+
+333
+00:14:09,330 --> 00:14:11,430
+You know they'll study the brain
+
+334
+00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:13,290
+and then electrical activity in the brain
+
+335
+00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:15,630
+and try to understand
+what consciousness is.
+
+336
+00:14:15,630 --> 00:14:19,140
+What we do is we look
+at our own experience.
+
+337
+00:14:19,140 --> 00:14:21,870
+I mean the evidence of consciousness
+
+338
+00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:23,703
+is available to all of us.
+
+339
+00:14:25,170 --> 00:14:28,230
+That's the first experience
+that we have in all our lives.
+
+340
+00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:31,263
+We're first aware and then
+aware of something else.
+
+341
+00:14:36,420 --> 00:14:39,630
+Consciousness itself
+does not need evidence
+
+342
+00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:40,860
+'cause it's self-evident.
+
+343
+00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:43,860
+It's what in Vedanta we
+call 'self-luminous.'
+
+344
+00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:46,080
+Light is a good example.
+
+345
+00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:47,850
+In a dark room, when you switch on a light
+
+346
+00:14:47,850 --> 00:14:50,130
+everything in that room,
+people and tables and chairs,
+
+347
+00:14:50,130 --> 00:14:52,410
+they're all revealed by that light.
+
+348
+00:14:52,410 --> 00:14:54,780
+You don't need another
+light to see that light.
+
+349
+00:14:54,780 --> 00:14:57,810
+Consciousness is the light of lights,
+
+350
+00:14:57,810 --> 00:14:59,117
+in Sanskrit (speaking
+in foreign language).
+
+351
+00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,360
+By its light, everything here is lit up.
+
+352
+00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,510
+When we are seeing, hearing,
+smelling, tasting, touching,
+
+353
+00:15:06,510 --> 00:15:08,880
+thinking, speaking, doing things,
+
+354
+00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,680
+all the time one common thread
+
+355
+00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,320
+all throughout is that we're conscious.
+
+356
+00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,070
+These are all activities,
+experiences in consciousness.
+
+357
+00:15:17,070 --> 00:15:19,713
+And if you define life as
+a series of experiences,
+
+358
+00:15:19,713 --> 00:15:22,260
+then what we would say
+is that an experience
+
+359
+00:15:22,260 --> 00:15:24,420
+is consciousness plus an object.
+
+360
+00:15:24,420 --> 00:15:27,771
+You are aware and then
+you're aware of something.
+
+361
+00:15:27,771 --> 00:15:29,291
+- Right.
+- And the things
+
+362
+00:15:29,291 --> 00:15:30,540
+that we're aware of, they keep changing.
+
+363
+00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:32,700
+So we have a series of experiences.
+
+364
+00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:35,070
+And consciousness plus
+object one is one experience.
+
+365
+00:15:35,070 --> 00:15:36,240
+Consciousness plus object two
+
+366
+00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:37,647
+is another experience and so on.
+
+367
+00:15:37,647 --> 00:15:39,483
+And the consciousness is constant.
+
+368
+00:15:40,410 --> 00:15:44,130
+In Western thought the one
+who came closest to this,
+
+369
+00:15:44,130 --> 00:15:47,280
+I would say, was the philosopher,
+mathematician, scientist,
+
+370
+00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:52,210
+Descartes, who about 300
+years ago, set out to find out
+
+371
+00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:56,130
+an absolute certain basis for knowledge.
+
+372
+00:15:56,130 --> 00:15:59,580
+And he questioned whatever
+could be questioned, doubted,
+
+373
+00:15:59,580 --> 00:16:02,610
+you could doubt, but he
+found that your own existence
+
+374
+00:16:02,610 --> 00:16:03,460
+can't be doubted.
+
+375
+00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:06,690
+"I think, therefore I exist."
+
+376
+00:16:06,690 --> 00:16:08,610
+Vedanta would say that, exactly,
+
+377
+00:16:08,610 --> 00:16:11,310
+but you need to go one step further.
+
+378
+00:16:11,310 --> 00:16:13,170
+Even when I don't think,
+
+379
+00:16:13,170 --> 00:16:14,790
+I'm still aware of not thinking.
+
+380
+00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:15,990
+- Hmm.
+- So-
+
+381
+00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:17,823
+- Yeah, that's a-
+
+382
+00:16:17,823 --> 00:16:20,190
+- Consciousness is primary.
+
+383
+00:16:20,190 --> 00:16:21,990
+Either thinking or not thinking, seeing.
+
+384
+00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:24,870
+I think that's what Descartes
+was probably driving at.
+
+385
+00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:26,670
+In Descartes "Meditations",
+
+386
+00:16:26,670 --> 00:16:30,060
+there's a very poignant
+place where he says,
+
+387
+00:16:30,060 --> 00:16:35,060
+"How strange it is that
+whatever I know in this world,
+
+388
+00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:36,570
+I can doubt it.
+
+389
+00:16:36,570 --> 00:16:38,370
+I'm not sure of it.
+
+390
+00:16:38,370 --> 00:16:39,210
+We can doubt any of this exists."
+
+391
+00:16:39,210 --> 00:16:42,210
+It could be in the Matrix,
+you could be dreaming.
+
+392
+00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:45,750
+But what I'm absolutely
+sure of my own existence,
+
+393
+00:16:45,750 --> 00:16:49,020
+I don't know anything about
+it, that consciousness.
+
+394
+00:16:49,020 --> 00:16:50,670
+- Do you think anything about
+
+395
+00:16:50,670 --> 00:16:53,130
+the different approaches
+to understanding the world
+
+396
+00:16:53,130 --> 00:16:54,390
+and understanding consciousness,
+
+397
+00:16:54,390 --> 00:16:57,150
+say the spiritual and the
+materialist approaches,
+
+398
+00:16:57,150 --> 00:17:00,570
+that they necessarily lead
+to different conclusions
+
+399
+00:17:00,570 --> 00:17:03,150
+about meaning and purpose?
+
+400
+00:17:03,150 --> 00:17:05,700
+- I am a conscious being,
+first and foremost.
+
+401
+00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:09,599
+Before even I am a body or a human being,
+
+402
+00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,460
+I'm a conscious being first.
+
+403
+00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:15,213
+And if that consciousness
+itself is denied,
+
+404
+00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:20,790
+as an illusion or as nothing
+but activities in matter,
+
+405
+00:17:20,790 --> 00:17:23,160
+in your living in the brain,
+
+406
+00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,369
+in that case, the things which
+consciousness uniquely does,
+
+407
+00:17:26,369 --> 00:17:29,580
+like meaning and purpose,
+they will also be denied.
+
+408
+00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:31,320
+They will also be reduced to either matter
+
+409
+00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,210
+or be dismissed as an illusion.
+
+410
+00:17:33,210 --> 00:17:36,000
+You'll inevitably have a worldview
+
+411
+00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,410
+which is devoid of meaning, of purpose.
+
+412
+00:17:40,410 --> 00:17:41,700
+So now we have this
+
+413
+00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:45,303
+profoundly disconnected
+culture in the world today.
+
+414
+00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,700
+There is science, hardcore science,
+
+415
+00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:54,933
+and which claims absolute
+possession of truth.
+
+416
+00:17:55,890 --> 00:17:59,850
+And there is religion, humanities,
+
+417
+00:17:59,850 --> 00:18:02,550
+all of which science would
+say is sort of derivative.
+
+418
+00:18:02,550 --> 00:18:07,110
+You know that reality is
+matter, space, time, energy
+
+419
+00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:09,360
+and from that life has evolved.
+
+420
+00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:10,710
+And then life sort of comes up
+
+421
+00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:15,210
+with these little illusions
+of purpose, meaning,
+
+422
+00:18:15,210 --> 00:18:17,583
+value, beauty, goodness.
+
+423
+00:18:18,780 --> 00:18:21,180
+I think one interesting place is this,
+
+424
+00:18:21,180 --> 00:18:25,713
+where right now with ChatGPT
+and everything with the AI,
+
+425
+00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,310
+notice something very
+interesting is happening.
+
+426
+00:18:29,310 --> 00:18:31,680
+Whatever we human beings are capable of
+
+427
+00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,400
+and we thought our highest
+capacities are like intelligence,
+
+428
+00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,490
+like memory or like creativity,
+like decision-making.
+
+429
+00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:40,500
+Now these machines, AI-powered machines
+
+430
+00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:43,720
+are capable of doing all
+of that except one thing
+
+431
+00:18:44,610 --> 00:18:47,130
+and that one thing is
+they're not conscious.
+
+432
+00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:50,430
+And if you say that, all right,
+make the machines conscious,
+
+433
+00:18:50,430 --> 00:18:52,380
+they wouldn't know where to begin.
+
+434
+00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:54,837
+That's why they're asking
+what is consciousness
+
+435
+00:18:54,837 --> 00:18:58,230
+and how can you know artificial programs,
+
+436
+00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:59,550
+machines become conscious.
+
+437
+00:18:59,550 --> 00:19:00,550
+That's a huge issue.
+
+438
+00:19:02,610 --> 00:19:06,480
+- So some people say, "Well,
+I was typing with the chatbot
+
+439
+00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,950
+and I asked if it was conscious-
+
+440
+00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:08,783
+- Yes.
+- And it said
+
+441
+00:19:08,783 --> 00:19:09,636
+it was conscious.
+
+442
+00:19:09,636 --> 00:19:10,469
+So therefore it's conscious."
+
+443
+00:19:10,469 --> 00:19:11,302
+- Right.
+
+444
+00:19:11,302 --> 00:19:13,530
+- And you're like, "Okay by the way,
+
+445
+00:19:13,530 --> 00:19:15,330
+here I am, I sit here as a
+human being in front of you,
+
+446
+00:19:15,330 --> 00:19:17,080
+I tell you I am God."
+
+447
+00:19:18,450 --> 00:19:19,770
+Okay? Right?
+
+448
+00:19:19,770 --> 00:19:21,510
+I mean like that doesn't,
+
+449
+00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:25,197
+you know there's more to
+it then a reply like that.
+
+450
+00:19:25,197 --> 00:19:27,270
+- There's some competing claims.
+
+451
+00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:28,290
+- Yes.
+- We'll have to sort that out.
+
+452
+00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:29,460
+- Yes.
+
+453
+00:19:29,460 --> 00:19:31,230
+- Reid Hoffman is one of
+the world's best known
+
+454
+00:19:31,230 --> 00:19:33,420
+tech entrepreneurs and investors.
+
+455
+00:19:33,420 --> 00:19:34,770
+Perhaps best known for his role
+
+456
+00:19:34,770 --> 00:19:36,840
+in helping to co-found LinkedIn,
+
+457
+00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,220
+he's also an accomplished writer
+
+458
+00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:39,620
+and a student of philosophy.
+
+459
+00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,260
+Reid was an early investor
+and advisor to OpenAI,
+
+460
+00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:45,810
+the startup responsible
+for creating what is likely
+
+461
+00:19:45,810 --> 00:19:49,470
+the best known artificial
+intelligence tool in the world,
+
+462
+00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:50,303
+ChatGPT.
+
+463
+00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:53,190
+ChatGPT is a large language model
+
+464
+00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:56,160
+that answers questions put
+to it in natural language.
+
+465
+00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,440
+For example, what are the challenges
+
+466
+00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,650
+in trying to understand the
+nature of consciousness?
+
+467
+00:20:01,650 --> 00:20:04,260
+Reid explored the ins and outs
+of this emerging technology
+
+468
+00:20:04,260 --> 00:20:06,607
+by actually co-authoring
+his most recent book,
+
+469
+00:20:06,607 --> 00:20:09,420
+"Impromptu" with GPT-4.
+
+470
+00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:11,730
+We wanted to talk to Reid about
+how artificial intelligence
+
+471
+00:20:11,730 --> 00:20:14,727
+could help us better
+understand human intelligence
+
+472
+00:20:14,727 --> 00:20:16,893
+and what it means to be conscious.
+
+473
+00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,060
+When was the first time you remember
+
+474
+00:20:21,060 --> 00:20:23,970
+thinking about artificial intelligence?
+
+475
+00:20:23,970 --> 00:20:26,550
+- Well my undergraduate
+major, Symbolic Systems,
+
+476
+00:20:26,550 --> 00:20:29,010
+is basically artificial
+intelligence and cognitive science.
+
+477
+00:20:29,010 --> 00:20:32,910
+So I was interested in how
+we think, how we speak,
+
+478
+00:20:32,910 --> 00:20:35,340
+how we understand ourselves,
+how we understand each other
+
+479
+00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:38,700
+and how we do that both
+individually and collaboratively.
+
+480
+00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:41,970
+And Stanford had a great
+artificial intelligence department,
+
+481
+00:20:41,970 --> 00:20:44,820
+and part of why it ended
+up being computation
+
+482
+00:20:44,820 --> 00:20:48,690
+and cognition was my specific
+suggestion was kind of like,
+
+483
+00:20:48,690 --> 00:20:53,690
+"Okay, these cognition
+capabilities by these machines
+
+484
+00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:58,110
+help us understand our own,
+help us amplify our own,
+
+485
+00:20:58,110 --> 00:21:00,090
+might even create something really amazing
+
+486
+00:21:00,090 --> 00:21:01,920
+and understand what intelligence is
+
+487
+00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,480
+'cause we are very anthropocentric.
+
+488
+00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,280
+So it's like, well,
+thinking is what humans do."
+
+489
+00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,113
+- Yeah.
+
+490
+00:21:06,113 --> 00:21:06,946
+- And you're like,
+
+491
+00:21:06,946 --> 00:21:08,280
+"Well, we certainly
+are a very good example
+
+492
+00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,770
+of thinking beings and creatures.
+
+493
+00:21:10,770 --> 00:21:12,690
+But think about all the
+other thinking creatures."
+
+494
+00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:15,870
+Like we generally are very negative
+
+495
+00:21:15,870 --> 00:21:18,210
+on how other animals think.
+
+496
+00:21:18,210 --> 00:21:20,910
+And like they think a lot
+more than we think they do.
+
+497
+00:21:20,910 --> 00:21:23,253
+I mean they pair bond, they mate for life.
+
+498
+00:21:24,433 --> 00:21:26,880
+They coordinate in packs and groups.
+
+499
+00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,020
+I mean there's all kinds of things.
+
+500
+00:21:28,020 --> 00:21:29,495
+And we say, "Well, they don't really think
+
+501
+00:21:29,495 --> 00:21:30,360
+the way we think."
+
+502
+00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:31,680
+Well of course they don't
+think the way we think,
+
+503
+00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,080
+but they do think, right?
+
+504
+00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,750
+Well, now we also have
+another pattern of thinking.
+
+505
+00:21:36,750 --> 00:21:38,190
+How do these machines think?
+
+506
+00:21:38,190 --> 00:21:41,070
+'Cause, by the way, they
+are thinking today too.
+
+507
+00:21:41,070 --> 00:21:43,170
+They're not thinking the way we are.
+
+508
+00:21:43,170 --> 00:21:45,360
+They may not be thinking
+at our level of capability
+
+509
+00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:48,990
+in some regard, but it's a
+pattern of thought, right?
+
+510
+00:21:48,990 --> 00:21:51,240
+And so you think about,
+okay, how do we understand
+
+511
+00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,740
+all of these different patterns of thought
+
+512
+00:21:52,740 --> 00:21:55,540
+and where are they similar
+and where are they different?
+
+513
+00:21:57,420 --> 00:22:00,900
+- Okay, Descartes is, "I
+think, therefore I am."
+
+514
+00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:02,100
+- Yes.
+- Right,
+
+515
+00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:04,710
+and in general with respect to philosophy,
+
+516
+00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:09,030
+there's no uniformity of
+agreement that I can really know
+
+517
+00:22:09,030 --> 00:22:11,490
+that you are having a conscious experience
+
+518
+00:22:11,490 --> 00:22:14,760
+in the same way that I am
+having a conscious experience.
+
+519
+00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,110
+Is that true or no
+
+520
+00:22:16,110 --> 00:22:18,870
+or do you disagree?
+- Well, it's complicated.
+
+521
+00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:20,400
+- Okay.
+
+522
+00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,980
+- So part of what I think Wittgenstein
+
+523
+00:22:22,980 --> 00:22:26,073
+and other philosophers did
+in upgrading Descartes,
+
+524
+00:22:27,030 --> 00:22:28,380
+to put it in fairly simple terms:
+
+525
+00:22:28,380 --> 00:22:30,120
+So he says, "I think, therefore I am,"
+
+526
+00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:31,380
+because I go through this doubt
+
+527
+00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:32,790
+and I realize that I must exist
+
+528
+00:22:32,790 --> 00:22:34,560
+in order to doubt that I'm existing.
+
+529
+00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,930
+So okay I'm formulating
+a thought about like,
+
+530
+00:22:36,930 --> 00:22:38,670
+I think therefore I exist.
+
+531
+00:22:38,670 --> 00:22:39,990
+How do I formulate that thought?
+
+532
+00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:41,370
+How does it have any coherence?
+
+533
+00:22:41,370 --> 00:22:46,370
+How is it communicable
+to myself or to you?
+
+534
+00:22:47,070 --> 00:22:49,230
+And when you begin analyzing language,
+
+535
+00:22:49,230 --> 00:22:51,930
+you begin to realize
+that in the pattern of it
+
+536
+00:22:51,930 --> 00:22:54,630
+there may be some kind of, as it were,
+
+537
+00:22:54,630 --> 00:22:58,290
+transcendental observations
+about the nature of reality
+
+538
+00:22:58,290 --> 00:23:00,600
+that come about if you believe-
+
+539
+00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,670
+- Uh-huh, I think I
+understand what you just said,
+
+540
+00:23:02,670 --> 00:23:05,132
+but you may need to explain
+that in more detail.
+
+541
+00:23:05,132 --> 00:23:05,965
+But go ahead.
+
+542
+00:23:05,965 --> 00:23:09,720
+- Yes, if you believe that
+we are actually succeeding
+
+543
+00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,900
+in communicating at all
+versus making random noises.
+
+544
+00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:13,733
+- Okay.
+
+545
+00:23:13,733 --> 00:23:15,840
+- So then you begin to go
+to, okay, what do words mean
+
+546
+00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,210
+and how do we apply a word like conscious?
+
+547
+00:23:18,210 --> 00:23:20,250
+And I say, "I am conscious
+and you're conscious"
+
+548
+00:23:20,250 --> 00:23:23,490
+and we learn the Wittgenstein phrases,
+
+549
+00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:26,340
+we're a form of life and
+we play a language game.
+
+550
+00:23:26,340 --> 00:23:29,610
+And Wittgenstein's argument would be
+
+551
+00:23:29,610 --> 00:23:32,400
+because of the way the
+word consciousness works
+
+552
+00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,250
+in our form of language we do actually,
+
+553
+00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:40,250
+in fact, share some
+experience that is objective
+
+554
+00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:41,820
+and shared even though it is
+
+555
+00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:43,800
+each of our subjective consciousnesses.
+
+556
+00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:44,940
+- Okay.
+- Now, that doesn't mean
+
+557
+00:23:44,940 --> 00:23:46,710
+that that our consciousness
+are exactly the same.
+
+558
+00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:50,160
+Like where I smell something
+different when I smell apricot
+
+559
+00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:50,993
+and you smell something else-
+- Right, right, right.
+
+560
+00:23:50,993 --> 00:23:53,053
+- When you smell apricot-
+
+561
+00:23:53,053 --> 00:23:54,719
+- The quality of-
+- Yes, the quality of it.
+
+562
+00:23:54,719 --> 00:23:56,760
+Maybe there's something that is diverse
+
+563
+00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,140
+and subjective in it,
+
+564
+00:23:58,140 --> 00:24:00,870
+but we learn in our use of language
+
+565
+00:24:00,870 --> 00:24:03,210
+the pattern by which we
+go, "Oh, I smell apricot,"
+
+566
+00:24:03,210 --> 00:24:05,790
+and we synchronize in our language dances
+
+567
+00:24:05,790 --> 00:24:07,138
+with each other what that is.
+
+568
+00:24:07,138 --> 00:24:08,640
+And so we have some level of quality
+
+569
+00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,028
+of shared experience in what that is.
+
+570
+00:24:12,028 --> 00:24:16,260
+And so there is, in forms of life,
+
+571
+00:24:16,260 --> 00:24:20,220
+a presumption that successful language use
+
+572
+00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:25,220
+does lead to some observations
+about the way the world is,
+
+573
+00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,400
+not just by science, but by
+our ability to communicate
+
+574
+00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:30,990
+to each other about the worlds
+
+575
+00:24:30,990 --> 00:24:32,670
+that we are mutually living in.
+
+576
+00:24:32,670 --> 00:24:33,900
+- Okay, so I'm persuaded
+
+577
+00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:35,640
+that you are also conscious then.
+
+578
+00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:36,473
+- Yes.
+
+579
+00:24:36,473 --> 00:24:39,570
+- But we are living in a
+moment, where fairly recently,
+
+580
+00:24:39,570 --> 00:24:42,780
+there's been this thunder
+clap of excitement
+
+581
+00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:47,780
+and energy with and around AI with ChatGPT
+
+582
+00:24:47,970 --> 00:24:49,920
+and all of these large language models.
+
+583
+00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,740
+And it's remarkable
+
+584
+00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:55,440
+how quickly the
+developments are happening.
+
+585
+00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,020
+And I understand why people
+would say things like,
+
+586
+00:24:58,020 --> 00:24:59,790
+"It's not conscious."
+
+587
+00:24:59,790 --> 00:25:02,100
+But it seems to me that there's something
+
+588
+00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:04,830
+about the way these mechanisms,
+which are being built
+
+589
+00:25:04,830 --> 00:25:07,950
+and which we largely
+understand what's happening,
+
+590
+00:25:07,950 --> 00:25:10,350
+how they seem to do things in a way
+
+591
+00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:12,870
+that's kind of mechanistic.
+
+592
+00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:15,360
+But I suppose we do things
+in a way that's mechanistic,
+
+593
+00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:17,853
+but we also have a conscious experience.
+
+594
+00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,300
+And how will we know if the machines
+
+595
+00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:23,040
+are having some sort of
+conscious experience,
+
+596
+00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,090
+in addition, to the mechanistic
+thing that's happening?
+
+597
+00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:29,790
+Is it preposterous to think
+that, that might be going on?
+
+598
+00:25:29,790 --> 00:25:32,130
+- It's certainly not preposterous,
+
+599
+00:25:32,130 --> 00:25:35,331
+although it's preposterous the
+way that some people say it.
+
+600
+00:25:35,331 --> 00:25:36,870
+'Cause I think right now
+the machines are much closer
+
+601
+00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:39,120
+to tools than they are to creatures.
+
+602
+00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:41,550
+Because part of how we make judgements
+
+603
+00:25:41,550 --> 00:25:44,310
+and consciousness is like one of us
+
+604
+00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:46,743
+will say something to
+each other that we'll go,
+
+605
+00:25:47,610 --> 00:25:49,710
+"Oh that is, actually,
+you've shown me something
+
+606
+00:25:49,710 --> 00:25:51,290
+about the experience of that."
+
+607
+00:25:51,290 --> 00:25:55,980
+Or I see your response
+in kind of in delight
+
+608
+00:25:55,980 --> 00:25:57,180
+or in pain with this
+
+609
+00:25:57,180 --> 00:26:00,300
+and then I see a reflection
+of that in how I would do it.
+
+610
+00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:02,490
+And so that's part of
+how we do these things
+
+611
+00:26:02,490 --> 00:26:05,310
+and the devices aren't there right now.
+
+612
+00:26:05,310 --> 00:26:06,810
+There's nothing that says
+
+613
+00:26:06,810 --> 00:26:09,750
+the devices couldn't get
+there in some version.
+
+614
+00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:11,730
+- Right.
+- And part of the amazement
+
+615
+00:26:11,730 --> 00:26:14,160
+of that is, well, how do we learn better
+
+616
+00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:15,873
+about ourselves in that, too.
+
+617
+00:26:16,860 --> 00:26:19,110
+Like for example even playing with GPT-4,
+
+618
+00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:22,260
+which I've been playing
+with since last August,
+
+619
+00:26:22,260 --> 00:26:25,440
+when I go, "Wow, this thing
+can do a number of things
+
+620
+00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,410
+better than 99% of human beings."
+
+621
+00:26:28,410 --> 00:26:30,960
+All right, what's the role of specialness?
+
+622
+00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,790
+Like what are the things that we still do
+
+623
+00:26:32,790 --> 00:26:34,650
+that we are so much better than this at?
+
+624
+00:26:34,650 --> 00:26:37,890
+And so then how do we still
+use this as an amplifier?
+
+625
+00:26:37,890 --> 00:26:40,050
+I think is one of the great questions
+
+626
+00:26:40,050 --> 00:26:44,517
+about how do we come to
+understand other presences,
+
+627
+00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,120
+cognitive entities in ourselves
+
+628
+00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:53,120
+and how do we have a elevated
+existence by partnering,
+
+629
+00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,283
+dancing together, etc.
+
+630
+00:27:03,060 --> 00:27:04,830
+- I don't think consciousness
+is all or nothing.
+
+631
+00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:06,390
+It's clearly a continuum
+
+632
+00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:08,820
+and it's a continuum within an individual.
+
+633
+00:27:08,820 --> 00:27:11,820
+You know I'm more
+conscious when I'm awake.
+
+634
+00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:14,820
+And within a collection of species;
+
+635
+00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:16,500
+you know I think certain species
+
+636
+00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:18,870
+are more conscious than other species
+
+637
+00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:20,880
+and I think it's true
+with machines as well.
+
+638
+00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,820
+You know maybe, I don't think
+that we have any machines
+
+639
+00:27:23,820 --> 00:27:27,660
+that are conscious in any
+interesting sense yet.
+
+640
+00:27:27,660 --> 00:27:30,723
+But I think if we ever do,
+they'll be part of that spectrum.
+
+641
+00:27:32,190 --> 00:27:33,023
+- Melanie Mitchell is
+
+642
+00:27:33,023 --> 00:27:34,560
+a professor at the Santa Fe Institute
+
+643
+00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,187
+who studied artificial
+intelligence for decades.
+
+644
+00:27:37,187 --> 00:27:38,520
+- Technical thing I'm gonna say tonight.
+
+645
+00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,100
+- She's also the author of
+"Artificial Intelligence:
+
+646
+00:27:41,100 --> 00:27:43,200
+A Guide for Thinking Humans".
+
+647
+00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,410
+- I've been interested in science
+
+648
+00:27:46,410 --> 00:27:48,690
+my whole life, essentially.
+
+649
+00:27:48,690 --> 00:27:52,350
+But I got really interested
+in the topic of intelligence
+
+650
+00:27:52,350 --> 00:27:55,200
+when I read Doug Hofstadter's
+book, "Godel, Escher, Bach",
+
+651
+00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,600
+way back when I graduated from college.
+
+652
+00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,190
+It was about how intelligence can emerge
+
+653
+00:28:02,190 --> 00:28:05,640
+from this giant collection
+of non-intelligent things
+
+654
+00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,140
+like cells in the body,
+neurons and their connections.
+
+655
+00:28:10,140 --> 00:28:11,610
+So a neuron isn't intelligent,
+
+656
+00:28:11,610 --> 00:28:13,230
+I think most people would agree to that.
+
+657
+00:28:13,230 --> 00:28:15,090
+But when you put a huge
+collection of them together
+
+658
+00:28:15,090 --> 00:28:17,700
+and they interact in certain ways.
+
+659
+00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:19,890
+What we call intelligence
+emerges along with
+
+660
+00:28:19,890 --> 00:28:23,280
+a lot of other kind of
+mental cognitive qualities,
+
+661
+00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,040
+like emotions, self-awareness
+
+662
+00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,020
+and other things of that nature.
+
+663
+00:28:28,020 --> 00:28:31,680
+So that was incredibly fascinating to me.
+
+664
+00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,720
+And I kind of got into AI
+
+665
+00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,730
+because I went to work with Hofstadter
+
+666
+00:28:35,730 --> 00:28:36,930
+and that's what he was working on.
+
+667
+00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:39,870
+I mean it was sort of a mix
+of cognitive science and AI,
+
+668
+00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:40,703
+'cause we were interested
+
+669
+00:28:40,703 --> 00:28:42,570
+in understanding human intelligence
+
+670
+00:28:42,570 --> 00:28:46,323
+by trying to develop
+intelligence in machines.
+
+671
+00:28:50,430 --> 00:28:53,280
+All this AI controversy
+about consciousness
+
+672
+00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,900
+has kind of brought it into
+
+673
+00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:57,390
+the limelight of the broader public
+
+674
+00:28:57,390 --> 00:29:00,300
+thinking about like what is consciousness?
+
+675
+00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:03,314
+What is this thing we call self-awareness?
+
+676
+00:29:03,314 --> 00:29:07,170
+How is that different from
+things that are not self-aware?
+
+677
+00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:08,820
+You know things that people
+don't usually talk about.
+
+678
+00:29:08,820 --> 00:29:11,580
+But you know we have these systems now
+
+679
+00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:14,280
+that talk to us in natural language
+
+680
+00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,400
+and they seem like they're self-aware.
+
+681
+00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,910
+We know that they probably
+aren't, almost certainly aren't.
+
+682
+00:29:20,910 --> 00:29:22,950
+But how would we tell?
+
+683
+00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:24,630
+What kind of tests would we give?
+
+684
+00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:28,410
+And then we start realizing
+that these questions
+
+685
+00:29:28,410 --> 00:29:30,060
+don't just apply to like AI;
+
+686
+00:29:30,060 --> 00:29:33,900
+they apply to things like
+when is an infant self-aware?
+
+687
+00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:35,670
+- Sure.
+- It used to be,
+
+688
+00:29:35,670 --> 00:29:37,800
+you know maybe 30, 40 years ago,
+
+689
+00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,800
+people used to think that
+infants didn't feel pain.
+
+690
+00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,570
+- Hmm.
+- And they would do surgeries
+
+691
+00:29:42,570 --> 00:29:45,030
+on newborn babies without anesthesia.
+
+692
+00:29:45,030 --> 00:29:46,593
+You know it seems crazy now.
+
+693
+00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:48,960
+You know our understanding
+
+694
+00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,960
+of how consciousness
+develops, it's increasing.
+
+695
+00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,730
+Often, a lot of people don't think animals
+
+696
+00:29:59,730 --> 00:30:02,220
+have consciousness and that, therefore,
+
+697
+00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:05,640
+it's fine to use them as farm laborers
+
+698
+00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,130
+and to eat them and
+all that kind of thing.
+
+699
+00:30:08,130 --> 00:30:10,830
+But we really have very
+little understanding
+
+700
+00:30:10,830 --> 00:30:13,560
+of these questions about consciousness.
+
+701
+00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,560
+So I think AI has helped us to really see
+
+702
+00:30:18,990 --> 00:30:21,120
+that this is an important question,
+
+703
+00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,740
+not just for philosophy,
+but for real life.
+
+704
+00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:25,170
+- Yeah.
+- And for
+
+705
+00:30:25,170 --> 00:30:26,553
+making moral decisions.
+
+706
+00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:32,190
+- Good morning to you.
+
+707
+00:30:32,190 --> 00:30:34,240
+- And good afternoon to you, sir.
+
+708
+00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:38,160
+- Whatever we have in our heads
+
+709
+00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,820
+which enables us to understand things
+
+710
+00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:43,920
+is not something you
+can put on a computer.
+
+711
+00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,810
+It's very relevant, of course,
+
+712
+00:30:45,810 --> 00:30:47,423
+to what people say now about AI.
+
+713
+00:30:47,423 --> 00:30:49,650
+You see they seem to say, "Oh well,
+
+714
+00:30:49,650 --> 00:30:52,170
+these AI systems they're so clever,
+
+715
+00:30:52,170 --> 00:30:55,950
+so smart that they'll supersede us."
+
+716
+00:30:55,950 --> 00:30:57,843
+But to me, that's a mistake.
+
+717
+00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,450
+They get pretty clever
+
+718
+00:31:00,450 --> 00:31:02,850
+and they can do all sorts of
+things faster than we can,
+
+719
+00:31:02,850 --> 00:31:05,370
+sure, but they don't understand anything.
+
+720
+00:31:05,370 --> 00:31:08,010
+They don't understand what they're doing.
+
+721
+00:31:08,010 --> 00:31:12,330
+Understanding is a quality
+which needs consciousness
+
+722
+00:31:12,330 --> 00:31:14,030
+and they don't have consciousness.
+
+723
+00:31:14,910 --> 00:31:16,980
+- Sir Roger Penrose is a mathematician,
+
+724
+00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:19,800
+physicist and philosopher of science.
+
+725
+00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,420
+He's won the Nobel Prize in Physics
+
+726
+00:31:21,420 --> 00:31:22,830
+for his work on black holes
+
+727
+00:31:22,830 --> 00:31:24,990
+and shares a Wolf Prize
+with Stephen Hawking
+
+728
+00:31:24,990 --> 00:31:28,080
+for their contributions to the
+theory of general relativity.
+
+729
+00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,410
+In 1988, he published
+"The Emperor's New Mind,"
+
+730
+00:31:31,410 --> 00:31:34,383
+a book venturing into the
+realm of consciousness studies.
+
+731
+00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:37,110
+Most approaches to
+explaining consciousness
+
+732
+00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:39,450
+using classical physics
+end up describing something
+
+733
+00:31:39,450 --> 00:31:43,170
+that sounds like a really
+complicated computer or AI.
+
+734
+00:31:43,170 --> 00:31:45,630
+But for some scientists and philosophers,
+
+735
+00:31:45,630 --> 00:31:48,330
+there's a nagging sense that
+there's still something special
+
+736
+00:31:48,330 --> 00:31:50,430
+about consciousness that can't be captured
+
+737
+00:31:50,430 --> 00:31:52,500
+by classical physics alone-
+
+738
+00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:56,103
+and, as a result, can't be
+reduced to simple computation.
+
+739
+00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,270
+This is what led Roger to
+explore whether the weirdness
+
+740
+00:32:00,270 --> 00:32:03,120
+and mystery of quantum
+physics might help explain
+
+741
+00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,090
+the weirdness and
+mystery of consciousness.
+
+742
+00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:08,310
+- So I began to wonder about,
+
+743
+00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:11,820
+"Well, what is it that
+we can have in our heads
+
+744
+00:32:11,820 --> 00:32:14,730
+which isn't something you
+could put on a computer."
+
+745
+00:32:14,730 --> 00:32:17,413
+Now I am a physicalist,
+
+746
+00:32:17,413 --> 00:32:20,370
+in the sense that I believe
+what's going on in our heads
+
+747
+00:32:20,370 --> 00:32:22,560
+is part of the physical world.
+
+748
+00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,530
+And it's the same with
+what's going on in this glass
+
+749
+00:32:25,530 --> 00:32:29,280
+or what's going on in this
+thing, with this light.
+
+750
+00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,863
+All those things are part
+of the physical world.
+
+751
+00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,050
+The argument I would make
+is that consciousness,
+
+752
+00:32:37,050 --> 00:32:39,420
+if you make a conscious decision,
+
+753
+00:32:39,420 --> 00:32:42,840
+your conscious action
+is not a computation,
+
+754
+00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,210
+but it's something which depends
+
+755
+00:32:45,210 --> 00:32:47,910
+on this mysterious part of physics
+
+756
+00:32:47,910 --> 00:32:50,820
+which is a sort of gap
+in our understanding,
+
+757
+00:32:50,820 --> 00:32:52,970
+which is the collapse
+of the wave function.
+
+758
+00:32:54,540 --> 00:32:55,500
+- In quantum mechanics,
+
+759
+00:32:55,500 --> 00:32:57,060
+the collapse of the wave function
+
+760
+00:32:57,060 --> 00:32:58,950
+refers to what happens when you try to,
+
+761
+00:32:58,950 --> 00:33:01,470
+actually, measure the
+state of a quantum system
+
+762
+00:33:01,470 --> 00:33:03,540
+at a given moment in time.
+
+763
+00:33:03,540 --> 00:33:06,000
+The thing is quantum
+entities like electrons
+
+764
+00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,660
+can exist in multiple
+states at the same time.
+
+765
+00:33:09,660 --> 00:33:11,790
+Think of it like a roll of the dice.
+
+766
+00:33:11,790 --> 00:33:14,910
+When they're in the air,
+they're all potential.
+
+767
+00:33:14,910 --> 00:33:17,430
+They have no numerical value at all.
+
+768
+00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:19,740
+But when they land, they collapse into
+
+769
+00:33:19,740 --> 00:33:24,240
+one of 21 possible combinations
+for a pair of dice.
+
+770
+00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:25,650
+But the single number you land on
+
+771
+00:33:25,650 --> 00:33:27,420
+isn't an accurate description of the dice
+
+772
+00:33:27,420 --> 00:33:30,090
+as they exist when they're
+moving through the air,
+
+773
+00:33:30,090 --> 00:33:33,750
+when all the possibilities
+they could land on still exist.
+
+774
+00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:37,020
+Penrose theorized that,
+perhaps, this quantum process
+
+775
+00:33:37,020 --> 00:33:40,350
+may have a role in
+generating consciousness.
+
+776
+00:33:40,350 --> 00:33:42,810
+- There's a probability of
+this, a probability of that.
+
+777
+00:33:42,810 --> 00:33:45,450
+But maybe that's not the whole story.
+
+778
+00:33:45,450 --> 00:33:47,130
+There's more to the story
+
+779
+00:33:47,130 --> 00:33:51,210
+which means that this
+collapse of the wave function
+
+780
+00:33:51,210 --> 00:33:54,870
+is something which, in our brains,
+
+781
+00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:57,783
+we sort of harness whatever is going on.
+
+782
+00:33:58,650 --> 00:34:01,170
+And this was the point I
+was trying to make in the,
+
+783
+00:34:01,170 --> 00:34:03,603
+you asked me about the
+popular books I wrote,
+
+784
+00:34:04,597 --> 00:34:06,963
+or I can call them
+semi-popular, if you like,
+
+785
+00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,830
+they're a little more technical
+than many popular books.
+
+786
+00:34:10,830 --> 00:34:14,219
+And "The Emperors New Mind"
+was the book I wrote first.
+
+787
+00:34:14,219 --> 00:34:18,000
+And I was trying to
+promote this view that,
+
+788
+00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,120
+okay, there must be something
+going on in our heads
+
+789
+00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,960
+which requires the collapse
+of the wave function
+
+790
+00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,795
+and that, that is the
+sort of foundation stone
+
+791
+00:34:27,795 --> 00:34:30,480
+of whatever consciousness is.
+
+792
+00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:31,652
+- Hmm.
+- And Stuart Hameroff
+
+793
+00:34:31,652 --> 00:34:35,070
+read my book and he got hold of me
+
+794
+00:34:35,070 --> 00:34:38,489
+and said, "Well, evidently you don't know
+
+795
+00:34:38,489 --> 00:34:40,550
+about something else,
+which you should know."
+
+796
+00:34:40,550 --> 00:34:43,360
+He didn't say it like that,
+but these were microtubules
+
+797
+00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:47,639
+And I was completely
+ignorant of microtubules,
+
+798
+00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:48,570
+he was absolutely right.
+
+799
+00:34:48,570 --> 00:34:51,389
+I didn't know what they were
+for, I had never heard of them.
+
+800
+00:34:51,389 --> 00:34:54,360
+- Stuart Hameroff is an
+anesthesiologist who,
+
+801
+00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,010
+around the same time in the 1980s,
+
+802
+00:34:56,010 --> 00:34:58,050
+was trying to understand consciousness
+
+803
+00:34:58,050 --> 00:35:00,633
+by studying the process
+of shutting it off.
+
+804
+00:35:01,620 --> 00:35:03,630
+Together, Roger and Stuart theorized
+
+805
+00:35:03,630 --> 00:35:05,280
+that perhaps these microtubules,
+
+806
+00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,460
+tiny straw-like structures
+inside ourselves
+
+807
+00:35:08,460 --> 00:35:10,650
+that help give our cells their shape
+
+808
+00:35:10,650 --> 00:35:13,320
+and act like highways for
+important information,
+
+809
+00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,030
+that these microtubules could be
+
+810
+00:35:15,030 --> 00:35:17,610
+where these quantum processes occur,
+
+811
+00:35:17,610 --> 00:35:19,293
+giving rise to consciousness.
+
+812
+00:35:20,490 --> 00:35:23,550
+- Anyway, so we got together
+and the idea started off,
+
+813
+00:35:23,550 --> 00:35:26,070
+I think nobody really believed us.
+
+814
+00:35:26,070 --> 00:35:27,630
+I think it's got to the point where
+
+815
+00:35:27,630 --> 00:35:29,550
+it's sort of one of the three
+
+816
+00:35:29,550 --> 00:35:32,340
+or four most prominent theories.
+
+817
+00:35:32,340 --> 00:35:34,950
+So it's taken sort of seriously.
+
+818
+00:35:34,950 --> 00:35:37,770
+And I think that it's regarded as,
+
+819
+00:35:37,770 --> 00:35:40,080
+certainly, a different angle
+
+820
+00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,580
+from what most people would think.
+
+821
+00:35:41,580 --> 00:35:42,960
+They tend to think it's some kind
+
+822
+00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,740
+of computer-like action in the brain.
+
+823
+00:35:46,740 --> 00:35:48,090
+And what we're trying to say is,
+
+824
+00:35:48,090 --> 00:35:49,840
+"No, it's something quite different."
+
+825
+00:35:51,150 --> 00:35:52,530
+- Penrose and Hameroff's theory
+
+826
+00:35:52,530 --> 00:35:54,810
+known as 'orchestrated
+objective reduction'
+
+827
+00:35:54,810 --> 00:35:56,193
+remains controversial.
+
+828
+00:35:57,390 --> 00:35:58,223
+But it's not called
+
+829
+00:35:58,223 --> 00:36:00,960
+the hard problem of
+consciousness for nothing.
+
+830
+00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,520
+There is no shortage of arguments
+
+831
+00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:03,900
+for and against, virtually,
+
+832
+00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:08,670
+every proposed explanation of
+the thing that makes us, us.
+
+833
+00:36:08,670 --> 00:36:10,320
+When we were chatting a bit earlier
+
+834
+00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,720
+about science and religion,
+
+835
+00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:14,160
+I was having a little bit of trouble
+
+836
+00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,170
+squaring your perspective.
+
+837
+00:36:16,170 --> 00:36:19,890
+Because in one respect, I think
+there's a sense that science
+
+838
+00:36:19,890 --> 00:36:22,710
+and religion shouldn't
+be afraid of one another
+
+839
+00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:26,130
+and it oughta be able to address
+some of the same questions.
+
+840
+00:36:26,130 --> 00:36:26,963
+But in another respect,
+
+841
+00:36:26,963 --> 00:36:30,600
+we are defining two very
+different kind of approaches.
+
+842
+00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:31,800
+- Yes.
+- So how do you
+
+843
+00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,310
+define religion and how
+do you define science
+
+844
+00:36:35,310 --> 00:36:37,290
+relative to one another?
+
+845
+00:36:37,290 --> 00:36:40,780
+- Our definition of religion would be that
+
+846
+00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:46,820
+it's the manifestation of a
+potential divinity in all of us
+
+847
+00:36:48,450 --> 00:36:51,180
+and the goal is to manifest
+this divinity within us.
+
+848
+00:36:51,180 --> 00:36:52,200
+- Hm.
+- You do it
+
+849
+00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:53,670
+through philosophy.
+
+850
+00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:55,530
+You do it through meditation.
+
+851
+00:36:55,530 --> 00:36:57,570
+You do it through devotional religion.
+
+852
+00:36:57,570 --> 00:36:59,220
+You do it through good works.
+
+853
+00:36:59,220 --> 00:37:01,830
+In all the ways in which humanity
+
+854
+00:37:01,830 --> 00:37:03,660
+has tried to become better and greater,
+
+855
+00:37:03,660 --> 00:37:06,480
+it is a manifestation of
+the divinity within us.
+
+856
+00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,500
+And science, as far as we have it now,
+
+857
+00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:14,280
+is a quest to understand what reality is.
+
+858
+00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,060
+So far it has been focused
+on external reality
+
+859
+00:37:18,060 --> 00:37:21,540
+and, curiously, it has ignored ourselves.
+
+860
+00:37:21,540 --> 00:37:25,470
+You know, at most, we
+are focused on the body
+
+861
+00:37:25,470 --> 00:37:27,960
+and we've learned an
+enormous lot about it.
+
+862
+00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,960
+But the science of the mind
+is still in its infancy.
+
+863
+00:37:33,570 --> 00:37:36,750
+I mean if you ask a
+materialist reductionist,
+
+864
+00:37:36,750 --> 00:37:37,683
+what's a thought?
+
+865
+00:37:39,122 --> 00:37:40,680
+There is no space for a thought.
+
+866
+00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,490
+You have to explain everything
+in terms of matter and energy
+
+867
+00:37:44,490 --> 00:37:45,750
+and time and space.
+
+868
+00:37:45,750 --> 00:37:49,380
+Where in time, space,
+matter, energy is a thought?
+
+869
+00:37:49,380 --> 00:37:50,850
+What they will immediately say is that,
+
+870
+00:37:50,850 --> 00:37:54,090
+of course, a thought is nothing
+but activity in the brain.
+
+871
+00:37:54,090 --> 00:37:55,320
+But that's where you run into
+
+872
+00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,057
+the hard problem of consciousness.
+
+873
+00:37:57,057 --> 00:37:58,890
+And that's the biggest question
+
+874
+00:37:58,890 --> 00:38:00,930
+in consciousness studies today.
+
+875
+00:38:00,930 --> 00:38:04,740
+You know what exactly is consciousness?
+
+876
+00:38:04,740 --> 00:38:06,590
+That it cannot be reduced to a brain.
+
+877
+00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:12,500
+So even from a very rigorous,
+strict scientific perspective,
+
+878
+00:38:12,690 --> 00:38:15,930
+you can no longer deny
+that there is something
+
+879
+00:38:15,930 --> 00:38:18,930
+that it might be, in principle,
+impossible to explain
+
+880
+00:38:18,930 --> 00:38:21,872
+through at least our
+present idea of science.
+
+881
+00:38:21,872 --> 00:38:22,705
+- Um-hm.
+
+882
+00:38:22,705 --> 00:38:23,538
+- And I'm open, actually,
+
+883
+00:38:23,538 --> 00:38:25,260
+and people might think that you're a monk
+
+884
+00:38:25,260 --> 00:38:27,240
+and committed to religion, which I am,
+
+885
+00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:29,940
+but I'm also open in principle to the idea
+
+886
+00:38:29,940 --> 00:38:31,290
+that I could be completely wrong.
+
+887
+00:38:31,290 --> 00:38:32,250
+- Sure.
+- And Richard Dawkins
+
+888
+00:38:32,250 --> 00:38:34,440
+or Daniel Dennett might
+be completely right,
+
+889
+00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,750
+that it just might be matter.
+
+890
+00:38:36,750 --> 00:38:39,180
+And therefore, all our religion,
+
+891
+00:38:39,180 --> 00:38:42,630
+all of it might be just a
+matter of culture, of practice.
+
+892
+00:38:42,630 --> 00:38:46,560
+Religion is good, but I
+don't subscribe to that.
+
+893
+00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,690
+I subscribe to the heavy
+metaphysical baggage
+
+894
+00:38:48,690 --> 00:38:50,880
+that there is an ultimate reality,
+
+895
+00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,470
+which you may dress up as God,
+
+896
+00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:54,480
+but something like that exists
+
+897
+00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,400
+and it's somehow deeply connected
+
+898
+00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,343
+to our existence as consciousness
+and as conscious beings.
+
+899
+00:39:02,430 --> 00:39:05,280
+- There are many theologians
+
+900
+00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,670
+who have a very different
+perspective on consciousness.
+
+901
+00:39:08,670 --> 00:39:09,870
+And they imagine, perhaps,
+
+902
+00:39:09,870 --> 00:39:13,500
+that there is this kind of
+supernatural world that exists
+
+903
+00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:15,720
+and is perhaps outside of our own world
+
+904
+00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:17,790
+and that our conscious experience,
+
+905
+00:39:17,790 --> 00:39:19,500
+separate from the material world,
+
+906
+00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:20,730
+is something else altogether.
+
+907
+00:39:20,730 --> 00:39:22,770
+That it can't possibly be understood
+
+908
+00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:25,260
+in the way that you are
+trying to understand it.
+
+909
+00:39:25,260 --> 00:39:28,830
+Do you have a general sentiment
+
+910
+00:39:28,830 --> 00:39:31,620
+with respect to the competing approach?
+
+911
+00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:34,080
+- Well, very often it's
+not so much competing
+
+912
+00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,150
+because they agree that in this life,
+
+913
+00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:38,040
+my brain is essential for conscious.
+
+914
+00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,900
+If I lose my brain due to an accident
+
+915
+00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:42,180
+or gunshot or whatever,
+conscious will be gone.
+
+916
+00:39:42,180 --> 00:39:43,200
+- Yeah.
+- So in that sense,
+
+917
+00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,250
+we both agree.
+
+918
+00:39:44,250 --> 00:39:47,880
+They offer a larger narrative
+that says, "Well then you die,
+
+919
+00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,410
+but then God will resurrect you
+
+920
+00:39:49,410 --> 00:39:50,850
+in the fullness of time."
+- Right, right.
+
+921
+00:39:50,850 --> 00:39:52,183
+- I have no proof of that.
+
+922
+00:39:52,183 --> 00:39:54,540
+I have no disprove that it doesn't happen.
+
+923
+00:39:54,540 --> 00:39:56,040
+But for myself it doesn't,
+
+924
+00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,551
+because there's simply no evidence for it.
+
+925
+00:39:58,551 --> 00:40:00,450
+There's this other view,
+this idealism view,
+
+926
+00:40:00,450 --> 00:40:03,480
+which is sort of non-religious,
+that says, "Yes ultimately,
+
+927
+00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,730
+it's all a manifestation of the mental."
+
+928
+00:40:05,730 --> 00:40:10,110
+And if you die, yes,
+your individual conscious
+
+929
+00:40:10,110 --> 00:40:12,540
+will be absorbed into the greater whole,
+
+930
+00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:14,280
+think of it like an ocean.
+
+931
+00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,610
+You are right now an individual
+drop, with your own ego.
+
+932
+00:40:17,610 --> 00:40:20,700
+But then when you die, you'll
+return to the infinite ocean
+
+933
+00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:22,500
+and be part of the larger conscious.
+
+934
+00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:23,333
+So in that sense,
+
+935
+00:40:23,333 --> 00:40:25,890
+what is most fundamental
+is not the physical,
+
+936
+00:40:25,890 --> 00:40:26,940
+it's actually the mental.
+
+937
+00:40:26,940 --> 00:40:28,500
+- Um-hm.
+- But it's not
+
+938
+00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:29,340
+personal survival.
+
+939
+00:40:29,340 --> 00:40:30,900
+It's very different from the classical,
+
+940
+00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:32,430
+you know you will be there in heaven
+
+941
+00:40:32,430 --> 00:40:34,290
+floating around in some cloud in paradise.
+
+942
+00:40:34,290 --> 00:40:35,123
+- Right.
+
+943
+00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:39,900
+It's interesting that you
+could think about all there is,
+
+944
+00:40:39,900 --> 00:40:42,840
+the sort of mystery of all of that
+
+945
+00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,650
+and that drop could either
+be descending into some void
+
+946
+00:40:46,650 --> 00:40:48,150
+never to be heard from again
+
+947
+00:40:48,150 --> 00:40:51,000
+or returning to become
+a part of all there is.
+
+948
+00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,120
+And one could hold the
+same thought, essentially,
+
+949
+00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:55,650
+and frame it in those different ways-
+
+950
+00:40:55,650 --> 00:40:57,023
+- In two different ways, yes.
+- Yeah.
+
+951
+00:40:57,023 --> 00:40:57,870
+- And the physicalist would say,
+
+952
+00:40:57,870 --> 00:41:01,640
+yeah, that drop disappears into
+the void, as you just said.
+
+953
+00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:02,760
+Or an idealist would say, no,
+
+954
+00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,310
+it returns sort of to that the ooze
+
+955
+00:41:05,310 --> 00:41:08,040
+or substance from which it all came.
+
+956
+00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,180
+It's a very different view,
+
+957
+00:41:09,180 --> 00:41:11,520
+but you know might be true.
+
+958
+00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,210
+- Yeah, what if this is just ineffable?
+
+959
+00:41:15,210 --> 00:41:16,980
+We can approach it,
+
+960
+00:41:16,980 --> 00:41:19,890
+but we'll always be infinitely far away.
+
+961
+00:41:19,890 --> 00:41:21,840
+- Yeah, there's no
+guarantee that there will be
+
+962
+00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,940
+a final ultimate theory of consciousness.
+
+963
+00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:25,170
+But I know there's a guarantee
+
+964
+00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:27,820
+that there will not be such
+a theory if we don't try.
+
+965
+00:41:29,250 --> 00:41:31,320
+- The debate over how consciousness works,
+
+966
+00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,835
+where it resides and why we have,
+
+967
+00:41:33,835 --> 00:41:36,900
+it seems unlikely to be
+resolved in my lifetime.
+
+968
+00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:39,270
+But as humans, we're
+prone to filling in gaps
+
+969
+00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:42,480
+in our understanding with
+speculation and superstition.
+
+970
+00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,190
+But I've gotta say that with something
+
+971
+00:41:44,190 --> 00:41:47,430
+as fundamental to our
+experience as consciousness,
+
+972
+00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:50,910
+it's hard to imagine that it
+doesn't have some purpose.
+
+973
+00:41:50,910 --> 00:41:52,920
+- Maybe there is a teleology
+
+974
+00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,020
+towards the elevation of consciousness
+
+975
+00:41:55,020 --> 00:41:55,980
+and being in the Universe,
+
+976
+00:41:55,980 --> 00:41:58,110
+which we are somehow participants in,
+
+977
+00:41:58,110 --> 00:41:59,940
+may be leading examples of.
+
+978
+00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:02,190
+That would be a beautiful existence.
+
+979
+00:42:02,190 --> 00:42:03,090
+- You would like that to be-
+
+980
+00:42:03,090 --> 00:42:05,610
+- That would be a great,
+that'd be wonderful.
+
+981
+00:42:05,610 --> 00:42:06,443
+- Okay.
+- You know like I think
+
+982
+00:42:06,443 --> 00:42:08,100
+the Buddhism karmic rebirth
+
+983
+00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:11,310
+is one of the most elegant metaphysics,
+
+984
+00:42:11,310 --> 00:42:14,190
+should it actually, in fact, really exist.
+
+985
+00:42:14,190 --> 00:42:16,830
+Look, say the world
+doesn't have a teleology,
+
+986
+00:42:16,830 --> 00:42:19,740
+there's no reason that we
+need to treat the world
+
+987
+00:42:19,740 --> 00:42:21,090
+as if it doesn't.
+
+988
+00:42:21,090 --> 00:42:24,960
+We can say, "No, we think
+that it is a elegant thing,
+
+989
+00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,180
+a thing of beauty, a thing of importance
+
+990
+00:42:27,180 --> 00:42:30,510
+about the expansion of
+consciousness in the Universe."
+
+991
+00:42:30,510 --> 00:42:32,370
+That is the mission that we're on,
+
+992
+00:42:32,370 --> 00:42:33,600
+that we are demonstrating
+
+993
+00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,520
+and it doesn't matter if you say, wow,
+
+994
+00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:40,080
+there's only like physics
+and atoms and so forth.
+
+995
+00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,200
+But let's act in a way such that,
+
+996
+00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,560
+that the nobility of that quest
+
+997
+00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,500
+of becoming our aspirational humanity,
+
+998
+00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:54,500
+becoming more conscious
+is the point of life.
+
+999
+00:42:54,510 --> 00:42:56,670
+We can choose that. We can anoint that.
+
+1000
+00:42:56,670 --> 00:42:59,943
+We can say that is where we're going.
+
+1001
+00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,013
+- Consciousness is a gift.
+
+1002
+00:43:05,970 --> 00:43:07,770
+Whatever it turns out to be
+
+1003
+00:43:07,770 --> 00:43:11,433
+and whether or not it has
+a purpose, it is present.
+
+1004
+00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:15,240
+It's the foundation of all human action:
+
+1005
+00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:17,073
+past, present and future.
+
+1006
+00:43:17,940 --> 00:43:20,550
+It imbues us with the
+power to shape our world,
+
+1007
+00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:22,060
+to understand the Universe-
+
+1008
+00:43:23,820 --> 00:43:26,280
+and, sometimes, even to step back
+
+1009
+00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:31,189
+and appreciate that
+feeling of life itself.
+